The UFO Iconoclast(s)

Friday, May 01, 2009

The Nick Redfern Roswell Theory Revisited

Here's a link to The Daily Grail, where Greg Taylor notes some complimentary information that bolsters Nick Redfern's Roswell theory, as expounded in his book, Body Snatchers in the Desert:

The Daily Grail

9 Comments:

  • Interesting theories, and definitely sounds plausible. Of course, once again we are to assume this guy has done his research without any proof of the so-called documents themselves to see as physical evidence. I also think Redfern is assuming a lot. He's using good logic, but in this particular case logic won't always guide you to the correct evidence: or, Ockham's Razor tends to fail here IMO. If we were to use it the Air Force explanation of MOGUL would have been accepted long ago and that's the end of that. But yes, there's too much misdirection and obfuscation the Air Force gains by having this case open, so I doubt they will ever admit to the truth, whatever it turns out to be. Another gripe I have with this explanation is that Japanese kanji would be mistaken for alien heiroglyphics. Sure, the world was less globalized in the 40s, but I would still assume people had a general knowledge base large enough to know at the very least that the writing was oriental in origin, but then I wasn't alive back then so who knows.

    By Blogger armakan01, at Monday, May 04, 2009  

  • Armakan01:

    No, you don't have to assume I did my research: all the new data is published in the "Darklore" chapter that is the subject of the interview.

    And how do you come to your "without any proof of the so-called documents to see as physical evidence" conclusion/statement?

    The documents (or as you prefer it: "so-called" documents) are reproduced within the "Darklore" chapter itself!

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Monday, May 04, 2009  

  • Nick:

    Fair enough. I am sorry to assume we just have to take your words on the documents, but all I had to go on was what the article stated (which did not mention these were in the book). I will have to get a copy of your book and see the documents for myself. Of course, I can understand why people would think that you have been victim of some psy-ops: it sounds eerily similar to the stories I have heard about Friedman and the MJ-12 documents, which have been proven very close to a shadow of a doubt to be fakes. To assume there is no reason to release more fake documents, or more precisely, that you have been subject to some misinformation is a bit premature I would say. As I stated in my first comment, the Air Force / US Govt has a lot to gain by muddying the waters as much as possible in this case, especially if the ET hypothesis is correct (Btw, don't take me for one of those hardcore believers: I am very on the fence about the Roswell issue). I'm not saying you should disregard this information, for its all you have to go on in this case, but can these documents be reproduced through FOIA requests? If this project were never classified it would stand to reason that they should be able to be obtained in that manner. I am still curious as to how you respond to my comment about the Japanese characters on the balloon found in 1947 with "mysterious oriental-like inscriptions." I've never heard the Roswell symbols referred to in that way, and I still posit that people of this decade would be aware what oriental writing looks like. After all, even in your quoted description they call it oriental-like. I don't think to deny this connection to roswell is "simply avoiding the data," I think your conclusion of this connection is a bit premature, personally. But then, I haven't been able to examine your book in detail yet so I guess my conclusion based on the article is premature as well, no?

    By Blogger armakan01, at Tuesday, May 05, 2009  

  • armakan01:

    I should stress that the documents are not in my "Body Snatchers" book. They are in the new volume of "Darklore" (as per the interview) that picks up where my 2005 book ended.

    No, I can never say I wasn't the victim of a psy-op. As per the interview you read, you'll see I have never denied this. And, indeed, when my "Body Snatchers" book was published I said precisely this at UFO Updates.

    I suppose unlike a lot of Roswell researchers, I am willing to admit that there is a possibility I was disinformed. You won't find many other Roswell researchers willing to say that.

    But, I stand by my words re why I think the disinfo/psy-op (for me, at least) is illogical: by inserting the Japanese angle into the story, it just makes the Mogul and crash-test dummy stories look suspiciously fake.

    Now, I agree with you that the AF has reasons to muddy the waters; but I would have thought that with the media (and some researchers even - such as Pflock) having accepted Mogul, it would be very risky to create ANOTHER scenario (Japanese), and have everyone then thinking: "Mogul must be a lie."

    When you ask about: can the documents be reproduced via FOIA: do you mean the ones I talk about in the interview?

    If that is what you mean, the answer is: yes. The new documents I talk about in the "Darklore" chapter ARE FOIA docs - not MJ12 type "leaked' files.

    Re the Oriental symbols angle: we have balloons found with Oriental symbols, where the military moved in and took them away, and where they were indeed shown to be balloons.

    Then - at Roswell - we have balloon-like debris (also with unusual symbols on them), that the military moved in and took away.

    And both cases are 1947. To me, at least, I have to stand by what I said: 2 cases, both 1947, balloon-material, balloon-like material, and a military presence. For me, that's too many similarities to be coincidence.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, May 05, 2009  

  • Nick:
    I have not read your book. However I will comment briefly. There were no oriental symbols found on the Roswell debris. Marcel's original description was "hieroglyphics" or "little numbers with symbols". His son said likewise. This has zilch to do with Japanese or Chinese writing. But somehow the 'Oriental symbols' has crept into the accounts of what was found. It is perfectly true that any Japanese or Chinese writing would or should have been identifiable at once. In 1947 the US had just finished a long war with Japan. It is inconceivable that such Oriental symbols could not have been identified as such at the time (if that is what they were). I suggest that in the case of the two other balloons you mention, these 'oriental symbols' were not oriental at all, but more likely a vague description given to them decades later, based on distant memories.

    Also, where is the 'coincidence' of the military taking the balloons away? If the US military, or even a civilian group, launched these balloons for whatever purpose, once they were recovered would you not expect the military to be the ones most likely to take them away in the first instance?And why do we have to suppose that the Roswell balloon had any connection with the other two? Where were these two recovered from anyway? Which state/county and what dates? Apologies if these are given in your book.

    By Blogger cda, at Wednesday, May 06, 2009  

  • CDA:

    There seems to be some confusion (as per you comment and that of armakan01 here, too) about where this data is published.

    The info in the intervew is not published in my book.

    Rather, it's published in "Darklore Volume III," which is a book edited and published by Greg Taylor of the "Daily Grail" website.

    Greg asked me if I could write a chapter for Vol.3 that would reveal the latest info I have uncovered since "Body Snatchers" was published in 2005 - and it's specifically in "Darklore" that the info on the 2 othet balloons is found.

    You state: "I suggest that in the case of the two other balloons you mention, these 'oriental symbols' were not oriental at all, but more likely a vague description given to them decades later, based on distant memories."

    You may indeed suggest that. However, the text I used was extracted directly from the original 1947 newspaper article (word-for-word), which reads as follows:

    "Two big, brown paper balloons, one of which had Christmas tree icicles hanging from it, were found by campers near Malheur Lake this Spring. The remnants of a third, with a strange metal instrument attached, were found in Klamath County in August. Army personnel visited the site and removed all the debris. All three balloons appeared to be handmade, according to witnesses, and contained mysterious Oriental-like inscriptions."

    So, this isn't a decades-later memory, but something described at the time (Sept 47).

    The "Darklore" chapter also includes FOIA files I have uncovered on the death of a young boy in Lincoln County, NM (home to the Foster Ranch, of course).

    The boy was bitten by a rat, and taken to nearby Fort Stanton (where, interestingly Japanese people were held in WW2).

    His condition deteriorated and he died. Interestingly, a large file on the case was opened by the FBI that was titled "Plague."

    The file on the boy's death was shared with none other than (a) the Director of Naval Intelligence; (b) the Air Force’s Director of Special Investigations; (c) the Director of the CIA; and (d) the Acting Director of the Division of Security of the Atomic Energy Commission.

    Additional, early-to-mid 1950s FBI documentation declassified at an official level reveals retrospective suspicions that the outbreak in the late 40s in Lincoln County (and the boy's death) may have been due to the Hantavirus, which was first recognised by Western medicine during the Korean War in the early 1950s.

    More notable is the fact that a discussion took place in 1950 between elements of the FBI and biological warfare experts at Camp Detrick [renamed Fort Detrick in 1956], Maryland to determine if, during the Second World War, none other than Japan’s Unit 731 was working on biological warfare programmes that could have been "delivered by balloon" in…yes, you guessed it right…Lincoln County, New Mexico, and which could have led to the "plague" that killed the boy.

    I don't claim to have all the answers; but for official FOIA documents to surface 4 years after my book was published, and that posit a link between Unit 731 and activity at "Roswell Central" (namely Lincoln County) suggests to me that somewhere within the murky mess known as Roswell there is some form of Japanese connection - and a somewhat dark connection, too.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Wednesday, May 06, 2009  

  • Nick:
    OK you have disproved me over the 'oriental symbols' affair. But two balloons found in spring, a third in August, and apparently made of brown paper! Not exactly similar to the Roswell debris, were they? I wonder why the two found in the spring did not get publicity until September.

    Anyway, it is not fair for me to get into this too deeply, as I have not seen your book or read much of the follow-up. I will only say that your proposed Roswell solution IS preferable to the ET one, but that is not saying much, really.

    Whatever answer people suggest, however strongly they promote it, there are always people ready to shoot it down.

    The ET solution is pure fantasy, and has never been anything else, since first promulgated by Berlitz & Moore (and Friedman) nearly 30 years ago.

    By Blogger cda, at Wednesday, May 06, 2009  

  • CDA:

    No, this is not exactly Roswell-like at all in terms of the debris.

    However, I think it's important because - from the description - this sounds like these balloons were possibly some of the original Japanese Fugo balloons that crashed and were never found when they originally came down in the closing stages of the War.

    And we know that the military continued to take a deep interest in Fugo balloons for years.

    I got some FOIA files via Fort Detrick showing that a Fugo balloon found in Alaska in the 50s was sent to Detrick to see if there was any evidence of biowarfare agents used as a payload. Luckily there wasn't: just a rusted old bomb that had remained hidden in the forest for years.

    But my point is that if Roswell was a post-Fugo/"next-generation" Fugo test, then (as with these other cases as examples) there would be a prime motive to recover the balloon - namely that the military was deeply interested in Fugos for years later.

    I have a lot of new files too on how none other than Lincoln La Paz (whose name was linked to Roswell by, I think, Rickett) was deeply involved in WW2 Fugo analysis and study.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Wednesday, May 06, 2009  

  • Okay, I don't mean to nit-pick, but let me point out once again what I was trying to say about the symbols. In your quote from the 1947 report of the other balloons recovered, I excerpt: "mysterious Oriental-like inscriptions." I have never heard the Roswell symbols referred to in this manner. Here is a detailed account (sorry to link to an Angelfire page, but it does illustrate my point and was the #1 Google result - also keep in mind I don't agree with the theories espoused on that page, just citing the drawing and quote by Marcel): http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/roswell_hieroglyphs.html

    As you can see from the illustration created by Jesse Marcel, one can see these hieroglyphs look absolutely nothing like oriental characters of any kind, and were never reported to. This is what I meant by the lack of connection between the other balloon recoveries and Roswell. I think its creative and not a bad judgment, but it's omitting some pieces of evidence by supposedly the most credible people involved in the Roswell incident.

    By Blogger armakan01, at Friday, May 08, 2009  

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