The UFO Iconoclast(s)

Friday, April 09, 2010



In recent months a myth about the "true" origin of aliens has made a troubling re-emergence. Several authors and bloggers seem to once again be touting the possibility that the interior of the Earth is the main center of operations- if not the ultimate origin- of the various alien groups present on our planet. New books such as "The Cryptoterrestrials" with the bizarre subtitle, "A Meditation on Indigenous Humanoids and the Aliens Among Us" by the late Mac Tonnies put this notion forward again. Tonnies' delusional book is now being vigorously promoted by notable commentators such as Greg Bishop, Paul Kimball and Gene Steinberg. But the truth is that such utter nonsense finds its impetus in writings by the certifiably insane, in occult antecedents that speak of "master races" and in religious fable.

In Tonnies' just produced book (published by Anomalist Books) Mac attempts to make the case that we should be looking down, not up, for the origin of aliens. Mac maintains that there may well be "indigenous humanoids" that are a race of people who quietly live deep below the Earth in hidden caverns, caves and tunnels. Such "cryptos" may be the pilots of advanced technology. These people believe that we should seriously consider that UFOs come not from beyond Earth, but from under the Earth's surface. This supposed terrestrial race accounts for things that we previously thought as extraterrestrial. This secret and ancient race, says Tonnies, is a possible reason for flying saucer and alien sightings by people who live on the Earth's surface. Such speculation should have been put to rest decades ago and has no place whatsoever in trying to discern from whence the alien comes.



Richard Shaver was a crane operator and welder for an auto-body shop in Detroit. Shaver had the idea that there was a race dwelling beneath our feet. He believed that this "underworld" was inhabitated by beings he called "Deros" which stood for "detrimental robots." They were in constant conflict with another inner-earth race he called "Teros" which were constructive or "integrative" robots. Shaver attracted thousands of fans to this concept in the late 1940s when he began to submit manuscripts to Ray Palmer, the managing editor of the pulp magazine "Amazing Stories." Though most of what was written in Amazing Stories was acknowledged as fiction fantasy, Shaver insisted that his story was fact. When a series of Shaver stories (collectively called "the Shaver Mystery") were published in the magazine, the circulation hugely increased. Palmer never disagreed with Shaver - and Palmer enjoyed the boost in sales from these subterranean stories.

What is little known about the Shaver Mystery is that a diligent researcher named Michael Barkun found out the sad, sick truth about Shaver a long time ago. Barkun discovered that Shaver was hospitalized for psychiatric illnesses in the 1930s. Diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic, he had spent much of his life as a hobo vagrant. Once settled, Shaver carved out a menial life doing welding jobs here and there. Shaver suffered delusions that one of his welding guns "by some freak of its coil's field attunements," was allowing him to hear the thoughts of tortured entities deep within the Earth. He began to discern a proto-language spoken by these cryptoterrestrials that spoke of marvelous technologies of aviation and weaponery. The "people beneath us" were a highly advanced pre-historic race that liked to come above to the surface and torture humans. Incredibly, even well after the publication of Shaver's stories in Palmer's magazine -and even after Amazing Stories went defunct- "Shaver Clubs" sprung up around the country to discuss the "mystery" even well into the 1950s. During the 1960s and 1970s, Shaver began to sell "rock books" through the mails by advertising in the classifieds sections found in the backs of occult magazines like Fate. He claimed that within certain rocks he found images of the Deros and Teros entites. These "rock paintings" were slices of polished agate that had grotesque images emblazoned on them by what Shaver called "special laser-like devices." With a little imagination, even this author (who as a child, had purchased such rock paintings) could discern the strange cryptoterrestrial images. Today, as an adult, this author is ashamed at considering such nonsense. The authors who tout Mac Tonnies' "theory" about such subterraneans should be similarly ashamed.



Victorian novelist and occultist Edward Bulwer-Lytton wrote such volumes as "The Coming Race." Published in 1871, the book describes a vast subterranean world in which dwelled a vast subterranean world inhabited by a technologically superior "master race." Like Shaver's Dero, with their ray guns, Bulwer-Lytton described powerful "ray machines" that emanated an energy called "Vril." Soon other books such as "The Lost World of Agharti" by Alec MacClellan appeared, repeating similar themes.

Other authors have proposed the idea of "ascended masters" of esoteric wisdom that inhabit subterranean caverns. Antartica, Tibet, Peru, the North Pole and Mount Shasta have at various times all had their advocates as locations of entrance to an underworld realm of sentients.



The concept of a "hollow Earth" has recurred in folklore and as the premise for a subgenre of psuedo-science for centuries. An early proponent of hollow Earth was William Reed who wrote "Phantom of the Poles" in 1906. Marshall Garder wrote "A Journey to the Earth's Interior" in 1913 and expanded on this in a revised edition in 1920.

Edmond Halley in 1602 seriously put forth the idea that Earth consisted of a hollow shell about 500 miles thick with inner concentric shells and an innermost core. He believed that others may live within these shells and that escaping gases caused the Aurora Borealis.

One of the most bizarre books in history, authored by a writer with the psuedonym "Dr. Raymond Barnard" was published in 1964 and bluntly titled, "The Hollow Earth." It is abundantly evident that from this book that the idea of lost races and UFOs from inside Earth are re-infecting modern day researchers- and are now being rehashed by those such as Mac Tonnies.



Of course the real impetus for all of this nonsense comes from Hell. The idea of races of sentients who are secret and different from us comes from the fable-concepts of the Greek Hades, the Nordic svartalfheim, the Jewish Scheol and the Christian Hell.

As Jean-Paul Sartre, the French existentialist put it, "Hell is the Other." And the subterranean "other people" dreamed up by such people as Shaver and Tonnies are legends based on lies. They are figments based on fictions and fear.


  • Tony is entitled to his opinion and, of course, the Cryptoterrestrial theory is EXTREMELY controversial.

    But to title the post with words that begin "The Lie..."??

    Since much of this post is about Mac T's book, anyone not clued-in on it, might think that Mac was lying from that headline.

    If you think he's totally wrong, there's nothing wrong with that, as that's what ufological debate is for.

    But, if you feel the scenario is invalid, I would have titled the post something like "The Fantasy About Aliens From The Inner Earth."

    You may disagree, but I feel "The Lie..." implies something about Mac.

    Now, I'm sure that wasn't your intention at all (I think you just happen to vehemently disagree with what he wrote), but to for me, that's how it comes across.

    I don't believe Mac lied about inner-earth beings at all: he just presented a theory that many disagree with.

    Also: bear in mind that in the book Mac makes it clear that he's presenting the scenario as a hypothesis. Indeed, the sub-title itself, 2-pages in, states that the book is a "meditation" on the theory.

    Whether Mac was on to something or not is a matter of debate. But, I think the one thing more than any other that he achieved was pointing out the deep flaws in the ETH, such as the absurdity of us being genetically compatible with them; and the fact that some cases seem clearly staged to reinforce the ETH.

    We could also include the Hill's starmap. Regardless of what it shows, no space-traveler needs a map!

    Can you imagine Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins going to the Moon and, after lift-off, unfolding it and saying, "Right chaps, turn left at the next meteorite for 450 miles, then head west until you see an old rocket-booster and then make a sharp right and keep on going."!!!

    Whether ET is here or not, the phenomenon behind the puzzle has worked very hard to present itself as ET - and in my opinion, too hard.

    And, I suspect that's what was behind much of Mac's thinking; hence why he went looking for other ideas.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, April 09, 2010  

  • Nick-

    Perhaps you are correct that "lie" was too strong of a word to describe such inner earth nonsense. However, I did intend the use of the word as a noun, with a definition of "an inaccurate or false statement." I did not intend it as a verb, meaning that Mac was intentionally deceiving...

    There is something that I neglected to include in this article: Science has now proven without question that there are planets throughout the universe - making ET a distinct possibility.

    On the other hand, though we have explored the Earth's subsurface (and even drilled many miles deep) there is no hint whatsoever of sentient races living secretly below us. Spelunkers, geologists and explorers have never found even a hint of such hidden races.

    With the passage of centuries we have surveyed, investigated and traversed nearly all land masses on Earth. No serious scientist has ever believed that there exists such cryptos. By contrast, we have only in the past few decades begun to explore the cosmos. Many serious scientists do believe it probable that there exists intelligent live on other planets.

    This is why the ET explanation for UFOs and aliens still finds favor, and why the crypto hypothesis borders on the ludricrous...


    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Friday, April 09, 2010  

  • Tony:

    Yes, the ET angle still finds favor, and I don't doubt that it will probably remain the most popular theory for the UFO phenomenon forever - unless the mystery is solved and shown to be something else. And I don't dispute the possibility of ET at all.

    But, there are as many flaws in the ETH as in other theories - so, again, regardless of who believes what, it's very easy to pick apart the ETH too.

    I'm thinking here of things like Vallee's Passport to Magonia etc. What people are reporting today as aliens has been with us for a very long time, playing its same late-night games, taking people to twilight realms full of missing-time, having an obsessive interest in human reproduction etc.

    So, to me, there's a real phenomenon, but it's origin is couched in deceit and obfuscation.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, April 09, 2010  

  • The other thing I think a lot of people don't realize, or have misunderstood, is that Mac wasn't claiming these beings had huge, underground installations like something out of a James Bond film.

    Rather, the beings in his book come across like the last vestiges of a declining race, very impoverished, possibly nomadic, unhealthy, genetically-screwed, but all the time desperately trying to convince us that they're vastly superior.

    I think the idea of some huge, all-powerful underground race is highly unlikely.

    Could some small-scale phenomenon with limited resources, that tries to imply it's all-powerful go relatively undetected? Maybe; maybe not.

    Ironically, if as AFOSI man Walter Bosley said - that Roswell involved a craft from Earth, but from a hidden society - one might argue that this is why they didn't recover the craft: they didn't have the resources to do so, such as lifting-gear etc.

    I remember speaking with Mac a coupe of years ago re Roswell in a cryptoterrestrial context, and he was fascinated by the idea that the craft really was a balloon - but stronger and tougher - but it wasn't OUR balloon.

    He also mused on the idea that the military really did think they had recovered a secret balloon project of the US military - until they came across the bodies, and realized it was someone else's secret, advanced balloon-style craft.

    I'm not saying he was right. But i am saying that in a field where even the ETH is full of absurdities, "meditating" on a theory (which is what Mac did) is not a bad thing.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, April 09, 2010  

  • I would have to agree that it would be not in our best interest to leave anything out, as a possible explanation for all of this...such as Erik Stitt's musings on the Psycho-Terrestrials, etc. see:

    I don't agree with everything he says either, but I do think it is another line of thinking that I probably wouldn't have considered, and am thankful for all of these other people's insights.

    Considering all other people's thoughts and ideas about something like UFOs, for which the explanation seems always just out of our reach, is healthy...BUT...that is a completely different can of worms than actually taking such information at face value, and running off with it shouting that the sky is falling...which is what some people seem to do.

    With them, the "truth" comes to us as a result of hopping from book, to book, to book, in an endless merry-go-round.

    The Shaver stories take on an even more sinister tone when we consider the cross-over into the Maury Island story, as per a certain strange someone, with equally strange connections, who did his best to validate the stories via his exploits into Burma, etc.

    I agree that the tone is only slightly too stern, but I thank you again for yet another thought provoking article.


    By Blogger Bob Koford, at Friday, April 09, 2010  

  • Nick-

    There appears to be a major disconnect. You speculate that the crypto-subterranean race may be "declining, impovershed, nomadic, unhealthy and genetically challenged." Yet they somehow were able to design and construct an advanced balloon that was stronger and tougher than anything that humans could make (and comprised of material wholly unknown to surface-dwelling man.) How could that be Nick?

    Also, would love to know more about AFOSI agent "Walter Bosley." He maintains that the Roswell craft was terrestrial- but its origin was from a "hidden society." Who is Walter Bosley? When did he say this, and to whom?

    Is there a record of this anywhere?


    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Friday, April 09, 2010  

  • Tony:

    How could that be? I don't know.

    But how could it be that super-advanced aliens never tried to recover the craft and bodies and just let them fall into the hands of the US military?

    They can abduct people from homes and cars, but they can't gather up a bunch of debris and 4 or 5 bodies? That's a major disconnect too.

    As for Bosley, I'm kind of confused. You sent me an email a few weeks ago and we discussed him!

    He wrote an article under the name E.A. Guest in "Fate" all about this several years ago, and you can find more from Walter in the comments section at the link below:

    That's weird you don't remember us e-mailing back and forth about Bosley, unless someone else is using your name...

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, April 09, 2010  

  • Presenting alternative UFO explanations gets attention. The multiverse theory popularized by Kaku has been approproated by some in the field.

    The truth is the hard science discoveries of today, 442 exoplanets and counting found, the common nature of the building blocks of life through the cosmos, indicates that life is ubiquitous.

    The question that remains is is any of it advanced enough to find their way here?

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Friday, April 09, 2010  

  • Thanks Nick...I do remember about Bosley now...Appreciate the reminder info,


    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Friday, April 09, 2010  

  • Ray Palmer (a great proponent of the Maury Island story) once wrote in his "Flying Saucers" magazine that it was Maury Island that proved that UFOs did not come from outer space! Bob Koford refers to an individual associated with the case. This was Fred Crisman who knew Palmer from earlier days. I think they both had an interest in SF. It was Crisman who claimed he had actually been shot at by a Dero while in a cave in Burma during WW2. Palmer took this seriously and was friends with Crisman for a while. I never understood how Maury Island 'proved' that UFOs did not come from outer space, but that was Palmer's view. Most strange.

    Palmer once told readers, presumably seriously, that the whole of modern physics could be put into the trash can.

    Palmer also postulated that none of the polar explorers actually made it to the poles.
    (The poles had holes, you see). I wonder what he would say today when modern GPS systems can pinpoint the poles to an accuracy of millimeters.

    For once I have to agree with Tony that the 'hollow earth' idea is taking pseudo-science more than a bit too far.

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, April 09, 2010  

  • "Tony is entitled to his opinion"

    I suppose, although his opinion isn't worth anything in my books based on his wild proclamations about Socorro (whatever happened to that?) and Roswell.

    And his penchant for writing sensationalistic headlines to get readers... like "The Lie About Aliens From The Inner Earth."

    Bragalia would have fit in best in the credulous and sensationalistic 1950s.

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Friday, April 09, 2010  

  • "wild proclamations about Socorro"

    It's the most plausible and thorough explanation of the case presented since 1964. Whose do you prefer? Ray Stanford's?

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Saturday, April 10, 2010  

  • In my opinion this is an excellent post that is a reasoned and sane `positioning' about `aliens from inner Earth' - and one that nearly reflects my view of `hidden aliens' in general. (I still hold that underwater is a possibility of a phenomenological alien hiding ground - as opposed to `aliens/entities' from outside the timecone - which are `hidden' by their very nature and relationship with our reality structure.)

    Indeed, the post is Brave IMO - as taking on Mac's final ideas after his death almost is beyond touching by anyone who is anyone in the `anomalous' niche of posting on the internet.

    Frankly, IMO, the title isn't even too strong - especially with the clarifaction by Tony.

    Rick Phillips

    By Blogger m4ever, at Saturday, April 10, 2010  

  • Tony,
    As an admirer of Tonnie's creative talent as well as having respect for his role as a humanist in a stark epoch, I have a more leveled approach to his metaphor of the human condition. However, that being said, I think we have a better example of the gist of your complaint on the docket.

    Best Wishes

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Saturday, April 10, 2010  

  • Is the planet Earth actually hollow? Seems highly unlikely to me.

    Does another intelligent race or three inhabit under-Earth domains? Again, seems highly unlikely to me.

    At the same time, I do think that certain peaks like Mt. Shasta probably do exhibit a variety of unusual energy phenomena, some of which might make paranormal sense rather than literal. The mountain literaaly contains chamber filled with lava, but energy phenomana might give a paranormal impression that the peak contains cities of alien beings. Mt. Shasta is that sort of place.

    By Anonymous Pitch313, at Saturday, April 10, 2010  

  • Witch hunts had been going on on the European continent for two centuries before Salem. It's actually surprising more of that didn't bleed over to the Colonies.

    We need to look at the concepts of correlation and causation here. When we have credible witness accounts and radarscope hits of hard objects doing things our own craft aren't capable of, the alien explanation is going to get serious consideration.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Saturday, April 10, 2010  

  • CDA:

    We are finally in assent on something! This may be historic!

    Frank Stalter:

    Thanks for your continued support!

    Paul Kimball:

    Re Socorro- More to come, be patient. The three articles that I have written on the event and Frank Stalter's fine work (and website) on this hoax should give you something to chew on for the time being. A couple of hints on new findings: 1) Lonnie, it has recently been learned, had some "issues" that may have impacted his reliability as a witness. 2) Socorro "investigator" Ray Stanford's credibility on the case has now been put into serious question 3) Additional NM Tech alum have come forward to offer telling insight that it was trickery.

    Re Inner Earth Aliens- How could you lend any support whatsoever to this? Though you and I disagree on many things, I always thought that you were intelligent. I believe your credulity and your allegiance to Mac has taken over your judgement on this one.

    Re My "Sensationalism"- My "shock reporting" on Roswell is for a reason. The truth about the Roswell UFO crash is indeed shocking!


    I too very much admired Mac's creative talent. But on this he was simply way off. His lack of historical perspective on inner earth folly and foolishness was frankly astounding. He was surely a brilliant man- but his usual common sense and critical thinking was unfortunately lost in his last book.


    Appreciate your comments on the post.


    You answered my question (about how such "impaired" subterraneans could ever have been able to create an advanced balloon that fell at Roswell) with a question.

    You asked how it is that ET - with their technology- could have left the debris and bodies on the desert floor. You may wish to google in quotes for my article "Why ET Did Not Retrieve at Roswell" for an explanation on that.


    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Saturday, April 10, 2010  

  • Anthony, I personally don't subscribe to any of the inner earth aliens theories, even though we ourselves - especially you lot in the US - have countless underground bases all over the world, so I don't see why it's so inconceivable, insane, deranged, etc., etc.,(especially if you factor in they'd' have to've been technologically more advanced than us for a much longer period).

    Only a little while ago people like Arthur C, Clarke claimed the proof there were no visitors to our world was our radar wasn't picking them up. Now, with endless failures to detect asteroids until just before they nearly hit us, stealth technology being the norm, and the imminent advent of the much heralded cloaking technology, such 'proof' looks increasingly lame.

    At some stage the technology to project signals at people and make them see what you want them to see, regardless of what's actually there, will be developed, (if it hasn't already - as a variety of tinfoil hatted individuals insist).

    When movie makers, games designers, advertisers, etc, start making use of such technology then claims if there were such things as inner earth aliens we'd be be able to detect their bases will be seen as 'virtually' silly.

    As I say I personally don't subscribe to the idea, which seems to've entered the culture via Socrates' last deathbed tale which describes, for instance, how the colours of the Earth appear when viewed from space - e.g., white appears electrically intensely white, quite unlike any white to be seen ON the Earth, something many a NASA astronaut'll confirm.

    For Socrates, it seems, the REAL Earth was the electromagnetically enveloped upper atmosphere, with its immense electromagnetic tubes connecting it directly to the sun, (a scenario I suggest's behind the traditional assertion we go 'up there' to a realm of celestial light when we die) - hence his belief we don't live ON the Earth but IN it.

    The reason I bring all this up is my own personal suspicion's Mac had a presentiment he was about to go on a journey he wouldn't be coming back from, something reflected - perhaps consciously, perhaps unconsciously - by his enhanced concern about the possibility of existence underground.


    By Blogger borky, at Saturday, April 10, 2010  

  • There were a large number of hominid lines in the history of Earth. It is not entirely absurd to think that some of them continued to evolve into beings related to CroMagnon Homo Sapiens, but not identical.
    They might still be with us, but stay well camouflaged in order to exploit us and also not be attacked by us.
    They need not be underground--next door or down the street is also possible. They might have technology specifically designed to delude and confuse us.
    If they exist, they will be monitoring ufology, and vehemently opposing any suggestions that their existence is real or possible.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Saturday, April 10, 2010  

  • Borky-

    You make a very good point about underground bases. And though such bases surely exist, I cannot help but think that such proven frauds as the "Dulce underground alien base" reinforces a continuing cultural meme that perpetuates such "subterranean silliness" as promoted by Tonnies. People like liar John Lear promoted the Dulce fraud. It plays on people's obsession with "sinister and secret things underground." The current interest in Tonnies and his cryptoterrestrial theory recirculates the Dulce obsession.

    I am also reminded of a man named Richard Sauder who produced a series of strange books on underground technology and a secret world beneath us. He played off on the truth of legitimate military bases that are underground, and began to spin ludicrous tales that took this to extremes. Sauder became nearly delusional and began to see such underground tunnels and bases
    everywhere, and I mean everywhere.

    He even produced long lists of such underworld realms that were supposedly located in nearly every state in the Union! Sauder made a lot of money playing off of this paranoia with a series of half-serious books such as "Hidden in Plain Sight," "Underground Bases
    and Tunnels: What is the Government Hiding" and "Underwater and Underground Bases."

    Some cultural concepts or memes will go on forever. Whether it is Hell, Hollow Earth, Dulce, Sauder, Shaver, and now Tonnies' "Cryptos" - such nonsense will no doubt resurface in coming decades and centuries. I am not sure what this strange attraction and obsession with sentient subterraneans means, or why we continue to be fascinated by these legends of lies, but it certainly is unending...


    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Sunday, April 11, 2010  

  • I have no theory nor any favored explanation concerning the origin of flying (if that's the right descriptor) anomalous visible phenomena such as those I saw.

    In plain down-home English: I know what they looked like to me but I have no idea what they were - since what they appeared to do is "impossible".

    Regarding radar: if the contact is moving fast enough it may not be interpreted as a contact by the radar operator. It's about the sweep time of the antenna and the pulse repetition rate of the transmitter.

    A radar mile is still 6.1 microseconds (out and back) and a long range search unit is only as fast as its antenna rotates. That being the case, it would not be difficult for a craft capable of multiple thousands of miles per hour to escape notice by a radar operator who usually has too much going on anyway.

    I haven't read Mac's book yet but I intend to do so, not because I lean toward an unknown population of terrestrial Übermenschen as operators of the UFO, but because I haven't yet come up with a viable explanation of my own.

    There are many reports of phenomena which are far stranger than those which I saw and very difficult to decode in terms of the true characteristics and capabilities of the craft and the operators of the craft (perhaps I should use the word comprehend in place of decode - or perhaps not).

    I can't escape the feeling that something or someone or some group is playing with us by providing disparate experiences to the many humans afflicted (if that's the right word) by sightings and/or abductions.

    The corpus of data thus far reported of the sightings of and the contacts (of whatever nature) with the UFOs which I have read do not make a coherent image of what is happening (as far as I can see)and instead give me the impression that a lot of the reports are either false or we are being visited by several different types of entities with very different reasons for being here.

    Anyone is free to disagree however violently with my representations as to what I think about what might be the cause of whatever I think I saw, it won't change anything - but "lie" is not a good word to use in this instance.


    A lie (also called prevarication, falsehood) is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement, especially with the intention to deceive others, often with the further intention to maintain a secret or reputation, protect someone's feelings or to avoid a punishment or repercussion for one's actions.

    To lie is to state something that one knows to be false or that one does not honestly believe to be true with the intention that a person will take it for the truth.

    There might be other definitions with which I am unfamiliar but this one is the generally used definition of the word and is a great example of what the previous generation in the US South called "fightin' words"...

    In short: you may respectfully disagree with my judgment or my scientific wild ass guess about an event without challenging me via a personal attack by implying or directly stating that I am lying.

    What I tell you I saw is true, were it not so I would not have so reported. Any interpretation that I might relate is supposition and might not be correct but even if incorrect will not be a lie. It will be an incorrect statement, which is not a lie but, rather a mistake on my part due to misunderstanding the nature of the event.

    I am inclined to believe George Knapp. As far as I know he's never lied to me yet. He was, when I lived in Vegas, my news guy and his book - Hunt For The Skinwalker - has thrown more unintelligible crap into the equation than I've been able to sort out so far.

    I'm beginning to think it's Coyote who's doing all this stuff, he has a brutal sense of humor - he's supremely patient - and he's always hungry...

    By Blogger Don, at Sunday, April 11, 2010  

  • Here's a blast from the sci-fi past starring none other than Superman. Don't worry, it's relates to this blog, it's set in Silsby . . . . home of the world's deepest oil well.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Sunday, April 11, 2010  

  • Tony,

    I looked at this book as a form of very creative mythology, that whether intentionally or unintentionally, seemed to me, verymuch like his earlier book on Mars, also very much a child of Ray Bradbury's "The Martian Chronicals". In this case he transferred the story to Earth. Everyone seems to have missed this. In his last book, I think he was very much trying to bridge the traditional distinct realms of fiction and non fiction in a very new way..intentionally to make more of an artistic statement that would be ridiculous to call an empirical certainty. It's sort of like the "catholics" versus the "gnostics" and he plumbed those depths by creating a provocation, not a edict. I think you and the book are talking past one another.To take it as an edict is to miss the point of the book. If Mac were here and not there, I am fairly certain he would agree.

    Best Wishes

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, April 11, 2010  

  • Tony

    No, I didn't answer your question with a question.

    In answer to your question I replied "I don't know," because I truthfully don't know the answer.

    THEN I asked the question.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, April 11, 2010  

  • Tony:

    Just read your article on why ET did not retrieve. They are all possibilities.

    But the fact of the matter is that it's STILL very weird that if ET can enter people's homes and take them to craft, or take them from their cars, or stall car-engines, disable nuclear missile silos etc etc etc, they can't scoop up a bunch of debris and a few bodies.

    We can only guess, and the reason we're forced to guess is because the whole notion of them letting all the material just sit there, goes against everything we think we know about them - that they have no desire for open contact and exchange.

    Or, it wasn't recovered by ETs because...Roswell didn't involve ETs.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, April 11, 2010  

  • All I want to add to this 'spirited' discussion is not a single person in Ufology and beyond has the answers. No one. That should be a comfort to know that we can speculate, but never quite accurately get a handle on the absolute truth. There may be Cryptoterrestrials AND Extraterrestrials. Or none of the same. It could be something we never thought of. Our history is based on hearsay and point-of-view, just like everything else.
    There is no right answer.
    I suggest 'newbies' read Tonnies AND Shaver, so they know what to think for themselves. And lastly, our planet has not been thoroughly explored. Our oceans remain completely neglected compared to our interest in Space. So, writing off other earthbound civilizations if very premature.
    And giving all the glory to Aliens from outterspace is wholly unwarranted, seeing as none of them have landed on the White House lawn yet.

    -Tina Sena

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Sunday, April 11, 2010  

  • As a postscript, perhaps the historical context within the framing time line of Roswell is of interest, as I suspect, as Nick does, that there are other more terrestrial possibilities. Uou might be interested in "The Cold War of Roswell."

    Best Wishes


    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, April 11, 2010  

  • Tina has a good point.

    We have a bunch of hypotheses to explain the phenomena that in modern parlance are termed UFO sightings. Prior to the 20th century they were sightings of the BVM, angels, Jehovah, etc. The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis is compelling but not the only viable one. I don't think we can rule out the Ultraterestrial Hypothesis just because some insane people believed it. I, naturally, have my own hypothesis which is none of the above but I'm still keeping an open mind.

    By Blogger Jim, at Sunday, April 11, 2010  

  • Hi ,Anthony
    So you are disagree with Mac. Nick has pointed out that if extraterrestrial are from distant planets ,it is likely that they would retrieve their debris after crash. so here is my point even if they are cryptoterrestrial, wouldn't they like to retrieve it. I'm disagree with anthony. he argues that ufo must be of extraterrestrial and not of cryptoterrestrials and speculations are based on drake equation. It is quite probable that life has evolved more than once and older terrestrials became highly intelligent provided by convergent evolution. If any extraterrestrial were come to earth it is more likely that they would reveal their presence unless a serious conspiracy is involved.

    By Anonymous bruceleeeowe, at Monday, April 12, 2010  

  • Jim-

    Yes, Tina does have a point well taken. However, we have to look at
    likelihoods and probabilities.

    There is now abundant evidence of exoplanets (planets outside the Solar System); abundant evidence of water on other celestial bodies; and good evidence of microbial life having (at least in the past) been found on other celestial bodies.

    By contrast, there is no evidence that has ever presented itself in the annals of science of humanoids living deeply beneath the Earth's surface.

    The only indication of this has come from mentally unstable people, occultists, UFO frauds like John Lear and from religious fables.

    The "ultraterrestrial hypothesis" has merit in that if extraterrestrials are coming to Earth, they no doubt must be able to traverse space-time. Thus,
    the extraterrestrial demands the inter-dimensional. The ultraterrestrial and extraterrestrial are not mutual exclusive. They need each other.

    But the cryptoterrestrial comes only from fable, fiction and lies.


    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Monday, April 12, 2010  

  • Bragalia's rebuttal of Mac's ideas smacks more of a panicked response to a threat to his own worldview, than it does to any factually-based, well-reasoned look at the facts, history, and evidence on this topic. In short, methinks he doth protest too much.

    He makes several blanket statements which are simply not true or accurate, both in his article and his commentary afterward:

    "On the other hand, though we have explored the Earth's subsurface (and even drilled many miles deep) there is no hint whatsoever of sentient races living secretly below us. Spelunkers, geologists and explorers have never found even a hint of such hidden races.

    "With the passage of centuries we have surveyed, investigated and traversed nearly all land masses on Earth. No serious scientist has ever believed that there exists such cryptos. By contrast, we have only in the past few decades begun to explore the cosmos. Many serious scientists do believe it probable that there exists intelligent live on other planets."

    In a nutshell, this is authoritarian and ill-informed nonsense. Just "saying it" doesn't make it so. An abundance of evidence of exactly the type cited as "not existing" by Tony has in fact been found, many times: I repeat, MANY TIMES. Rather than engage in a prolonged typing-fit here in order to convince an ETH-religion religious fanatic of something that he has already made up his mind about in zealous, dedicated, religious fashion, I would instead refer him to the many, many books of research that contain the actual proof and evidence, and accounts, that he claims are missing. Steiger's "Worlds Before Our Own," Keel's "This Haunted Planet" and "Disneyland of the Gods," Cremo's work, Ivan T. Sanderson's "Invisible Residents," and of course, "Caverns, Cauldrons, and Concealed Creatures," by yours truly.

    The ad hominem and non-rational nature of his extremely one-sided attack against a theory that he feels threatened by is a bit extreme. To be fair, the evidence exists, and if he'll take the time to read the books cited (as well as many, many others) he will find that evidence in abundance. But I have no doubt that he will not do so, and in fact will attack those works with similar religious zeal, yet leave them unread. Also, to be fair, Mac was not a "hollow earth" proponent or theorist, as I am not. We both believe that evidence indicates, in an overwhelming fashion, an historic indication of a civilizations parallel to our own, here on this planet, which have always been present to greater or lesser degree. The use of ancient technology to hide "within" or under the surface, or the oceans, does not fall into the definition of a 'hollow earth theory,' much as Bragalia would love to use that to ridicule by association a theory which he apparently knows, instinctively if not rationally, leaves the ETH dead in the dust (as it does).

    Bragalia, your level of research and knowledge in general is sadly lacking on this topic, because your point of view is a religious one, a belief-systemic viewpoint as dogmatic as that of a flat-earther. I humbly submit that, in spite of some quick research on the hollow earth that you apparently did at Wikipedia and elsewhere online, that you should actually purchase, borrow, check out, or otherwise obtain the decades of books and research on this topic and actually read them. You might learn something, in spite of your dedication to the bogus "space brother" deception. The most fitting irony of all of this is that you may, in fact, have fallen victim to a program of misdirection and disinformation by the very hidden civilization you are apparently so terrified and dismissive of.

    Good luck to you on your reading, and learning.

    By Anonymous W.M. Mott, at Monday, April 12, 2010  

  • "The only indication of this has come from mentally unstable people, occultists, UFO frauds like John Lear and from religious fables."

    How well do you really know the history of Ufology, Tony? Ever heard of "Diane, from Venus?" How about that Heaven's Gate bunch? Adamski's Venusians? Documented connections between UFO experiences and poltergeist and possession/channeling phenomena?

    Your protests are tad hypocritical and narrow-minded on this one. And there is far more genuine evidence for the crypto theory than there is for the ETH. Feel free to download the sound files at my site and listen to them, and you may eventually realize how absurd and often asinine the ETH actually is.

    By Anonymous W.M. Mott, at Monday, April 12, 2010  

  • Mr. Mott-

    You are to laugh. In the interest of "full disclosure" why not tell us who you really are?

    You are the author of "Caverns, Cauldrons and Concealed Creatures." Readers, always "consider the source." Mott attempted to make money off of his poorly-received "thesis" and is hardly an unbiased commenter on this subject...


    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Monday, April 12, 2010  

  • Bragalia,

    Thanks for the ad hominem. Again, it demonstrates your level of knowledge and authority on this subject.

    Who are you?, I might as likely ask. You see, your name is new to me (as much as I'm sure that dents your ego), but then again, I've dismissed most of the ETH crowd as territorial crackpots and irrational cranks long ago. They are the most unscientific-minded of the fortean community.

    Good luck to you though. And no, you don't have to buy my book, or any other others I listed. I could care less. But if you're going to wallow in pontificating ignorance, and make that ignorance so blatantly available to all, you might want to be more appreciative than vituperative when "new evidence" (new to you, at any rate) is introduced.

    Of course, then you'd have to be serious about getting to the truth, and not just another type of dogmatic religious fanatic.

    By Anonymous W.M. Mott, at Monday, April 12, 2010  

  • "I've dismissed most of the ETH crowd as territorial crackpots and irrational cranks long ago. They are the most unscientific-minded of the fortean community."

    It's fair to say that area needs improvement, but I'm not one to curse the darkness, I'd rather get off my ass and turn on a light.

    I have no problem with science fiction posing as plausible hypothesis or fan fictions, like the MJ-12 and Serpo documents, posing as truth, but I do have a problem with the most exciting astronomical discoveries since Hubbell's work of the 1920s being largely ignored by the UFO "intelligentsia."

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Monday, April 12, 2010  

  • Frank:

    There's a UFO intelligentsia?


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, April 12, 2010  

  • The real facts are that neither mac tonnies theories nor yours are any more or less credible than the other. It is all conjecture after alll, so to call his theories "lies" is silly and illmannered

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, April 12, 2010  

  • why not remove the word 'lie'? or you have truth? Prove that.

    By Blogger bruceleeeowe, at Monday, April 12, 2010  

  • I have read whole discussion going on there. It seems most of the points raised there are supporting Mac. Bragalia has no serious issue with that,the only issue is that he don't like promotion of such ideaS and seriously who love to believe in aliens coming from distant yellow planet would never like to accept cryptoterrestrials from a blue planet. I can't understand what's problem with him. It is quite possible that life has evolved more than once. If human could go to space just in the matter of some million years then why not other species could evolve? There are another 3999 millions of year left. Dinosaur have ruled about 200 millions of years approximately then why not consider another intelligence? only because your mind is engaged in calculating number of habitable planets without being aware of the emerging intelligent species on the other side of blue planet.

    By Blogger bruceleeeowe, at Monday, April 12, 2010  

  • "Dinosaur have ruled about 200 millions of years approximately then why not consider another intelligence? only because your mind is engaged in calculating number of habitable planets without being aware of the emerging intelligent species on the other side of blue planet."

    Dinosaurs left fossils and bones. There's conclusive evidence they existed.

    UFOs have been sighted by credible witnesses, tracked by radar, perhaps filmed and photographed, been the subject of meetings at the highest possible level of American government. Certainly the UFO as a phenomenon exists. There's compelling evidence they might be aliens from another planet.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Bruce-

    I have already explained that the concept of Crytoterrestrials is a lie - a falsehood that finds its origin from people who make things up. These people include John Lear w/ his "Dulce underground alien base" nonsense and Richard Shaver, who did not speak the truth.

    The "hollow earth" idea was dreamt up by occultists and frauds such as Sir Edward Bulwer-Lyton and pretend scientists such as Dr. Raymond Barnard.

    I do not believe that Tonnies himself was a liar. On the contrary, I know that he sought truth. But his thesis about subterranean sentients was based on things that were and are simply not true.

    You ask me to "prove" that such cryptos do not exist. It is not up to me to "prove" that strange humanoid creatures live secretly deep underground that have built fantastic technologies. No more than I need to "prove" that a fat man dressed in red once a year flies around the world to give gifts to children while piloting a sleigh with reindeer.

    Though I am not quite sure I understand your other post about life on yellow planets vs. undiscovered humanoids on our blue planet, I will repeat: While there is abundant evidence that there are exoplanets (planetary bodies
    outside of our Solar System) and that there is water and microbial life on other celestial bodies - there is no scientific evidence whatsoever that people live deep beneath Earth's surface.


    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • seriously there are no evidences that ufos are only from other planets. Probability is more of being from our own planet rather yellow alien planet. because we can exclude the factor for the chance of evolution of life(and it would be <1) whilst we have to include this for yellow alien planet.

    By Anonymous bruceleeeowe, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Hi Anthony. You just keep saying that cryptoterrestrials hypothesis is just lie without giving any arguments against hypothesis or you haven't any. As for evidences of microbial life on exoplanets perhaps you are talking about a rock from mars which have some signs of microbes just signs of microbe no real microbes were there. Just google this term extraterrestrials where are they and google will left you to my post in which I'VE analyzed the whole issue. drake equation gives the probability of life on other planets even if you consider other life forms that could be possible there are less chances for emergence of technologically advanced civilization on other planet than compared to earth. I'm not talking about this based on religious issue but it's scientific. Here is another topic for you. Perhaps you know whales and dolphins have been proven much intelligent than previously thought. then why you still keep it saying lies. You can't compare anything to lie unless you have solid evidences or arguements to discard it. Ok if I claim that your name is not Anthony bla bla would that matter anyway. sure not your name is still Anthony bla bla. That's exactly the case which applies here. I'm not making my arguements based on Lear's report or theory it's based on probability and science.

    By Blogger bruceleeeowe, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • New evidence cited that rocky, watery planets are common

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • I think i my self am not afraid of them.Give me a chane and i will talk to them

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, April 19, 2010  

  • What a hoot!!
    I love you guys!
    Hello, all, I am Walter Bosley, former AFOSI Special Agent, and Captain USAF(Reserve,Inactive).
    I have my DD214 handy for any sources who feel it necessary for bonafides.
    I would like to clarify that my April 2005 FATE article on Roswell and anything I have discussed regarding that specific topic is merely presenting the facts of what my late father told me of his experiences and knowledge. Personally, I find MUCH more evidence supporting Joseph Farrell's theory as detailed in "Roswell and the Reich" than any other theory -- at the very least, it is the most thorough book written on the subject, like it or not.
    Mister AB: Methinks you do indeed protest too much... You dismiss or ignore the plethora and volumes of historical precedent for 'hidden' and/or 'underground' races that far predates your cited sources of origin for this idea of 'underground' civilizations.
    I would like to clarify that I have specified the idea that there may be vast habitable underground areas moreso than a traditional 'hollow earth' scenario. And that drilling you mentioned has barely scratched the Earth, relatively speaking. Regardless of all this, much of the ETH is made up of as much myth and wishful thinking and fairy tales as you see in theories you don't like.
    Personally, I find the present state of 'ufology' a tremendous bore -- driven there by the ETH over the past 25-30 years. I think that we are long overdue to consider other options and in doing so may find missing pieces to the ET puzzle. By the way, I think ET exists, too.
    See, I think you might consider that we are not necessarily saying ET doesn't exist, we are saying that many things attributed to ET may not be so.
    This isn't an either/or situation, so one should not react as such.
    ALL could be true.
    For my part, I have personally gone into the field to investigate alleged points of entry into the 'inner Earth' and have found nothing yet AND HAVE SAID AS MUCH PUBLICLY. Of course, I haven't followed all leads yet, either.
    'Lie' was not the best choice of words. No matter what you intended, the word is generally interpreted to be an accusation. I think you're a smart enough man to know that.
    I will say this: I understand that I have put myself out there publicly with this stuff and must take what I get. However, on my honor as an officer and former federal agent (and screw anyone whose conspiracy-hyped paranoia raises question on my integrity in regards to when I carried that badge), I tell you that what my father told me he absolutely believed. I was the one who saw how it affected him to tell the story. I used techniques I learned as an agent to detect lies and found him being totally truthful as he believed it happened. I simply thought it was worthy to share it in the FATE forum. The ET Religion has become toxic with conspiracy theory. It's boring and it's killing the field.
    Anyway, I thought I might join the fray, since I was mentioned.

    By Blogger Walty, at Sunday, May 23, 2010  

  • Now Mr. Bosley -

    A quick Google on you reveals several interesting things...

    - You believe that Disneyland was built on purpose at its particular
    California location due to the special convergence of "ley lines." It was sited there because it lies within a "mystical" geophysical zone.

    - You see special significance in Latitude 33, and that energy lines run along this latitude that somehow effect the course of events

    - The JFK assassination and the Roswell crash are both somehow tied to this specific latitude.

    - You have admitted that some of your novels are based on your "real research." Or is it the other way around?

    I can now understand why you buy into the crypto myth and such "adventure fiction." You write fiction under the pseudonym "E.A. Guest." And by the
    way, I know of another former AFOSI agent. His name is Rick Doty. He'll tell you tall tales till Tuesday...


    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Sunday, May 23, 2010  

  • HAHAHAHA! What a brilliant and illuminating response you offer!

    "- You believe that Disneyland was built on purpose at its particular
    California location due to the special convergence of "ley lines." It was sited there because it lies within a "mystical" geophysical zone."

    WB: You indeed are capable of repeating the basic premise of my book.

    "- You see special significance in Latitude 33, and that energy lines run along this latitude that somehow effect the course of events"

    WB: Once again, you illustrate clearly just what is any more ridiculous about the premise of my book than the ET Hypothesis you embrace.

    "- The JFK assassination and the Roswell crash are both somehow tied to this specific latitude."

    WB: Yes, Anthony. This is a fact, these places are located essentially at Latitude 33. Perhaps actual geography is in error. You might wish to inform someone! Again, this fact CLEARLY discredits my book's premise! (?)

    "- You have admitted that some of your novels are based on your "real research." Or is it the other way around?"

    WB: Some of my adventure fiction features historical sites and historical evidence of places and cultures and ideas I've featured in fiction. YOU GOT ME THERE! Oops!

    "I can now understand why you buy into the crypto myth and such "adventure fiction." You write fiction under the pseudonym "E.A. Guest." And by the
    way, I know of another former AFOSI agent. His name is Rick Doty. He'll tell you tall tales till Tuesday..."

    WB: Because I write fiction under the pseudonym E.A.Guest is damning in what way exactly...??

    Anthony, I just came here to jump in with my friend Mike Mott and friendly acquaintance Nick Redfern after finding my name popped up in this. You came across so much like the 'Amazing Randi' of the ET Religion that I could not resist.

    But the debate is pointless as neither of us will convince the other of anything, therefore we have nothing to learn from each other.

    You have yourself a nice go of whatever you do, even if it is the 'lie' of the Roswell ET legend...

    You're so cute when you're smug!

    Don't all you guys just want to pinch his little cheek??

    By Blogger Walty, at Sunday, May 23, 2010  

  • Anthony, I say when we all end up at the same conference someday that we buy each other a beer, because after there is what you believe, and after there is what I believe, there will be the truth. And that will likely be somewhere in between.

    What my father experienced, only he can know for sure. What I've experienced, I can never explain sufficiently to you nor anyone. You can only go on what you've experienced. But why should anyone be vilified because those experiences and conclusions differ?

    There is no one truth, only many.

    You'll figure it out.

    By Blogger Walty, at Monday, May 24, 2010  

  • I think that it is clear that Aliens, whatever they are, indeed are residing in bases in caverns as well as under the sea.

    Now, the question is - did they originate there? who knows...I am not defending this book, or this hypothesis, but I do find it troubling when people act as though they KNOW that this theory is wrong and a lie - because unless you have proof of where these beings DO come from, I think that it's just suggesting that your opinion or theory is more valid than any other....

    By Blogger kitta, at Monday, June 28, 2010  

  • Walter,

    To clarify, is it true that you worked as a counterintelligence agent for the FBI? I believe Greg Bishop said that he personally verified that you worked for the Los Angeles Field Office. I just want to make sure that this is in fact your claim and not Internet chatter that has taken your work with the FBI out of context.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Monday, July 05, 2010  

  • I started working for the FBI on 14 March 1988, in the Los Angeles Field Office. I was asked to apply to a counterintelligence squad that very day and was brought into counterintelligence in November of that year. I continued as a CI specialist in two positions until my departure for USAF Officer Training School in August 1993. As a specialist in counterintelligence for the FBI, I worked for the San Francisco Field Office then the New York Field Office. For the record, I have repeatedly corrected people, including Greg, when they slip and identify me as a former Special Agent for FBI. I was not a badged/armed agent for the FBI and I have never claimed to be. I did work on the street and on sensitive issues and was credentialed and operational.
    I was a Special Agent for the AFOSI.

    By Blogger Walty, at Sunday, July 11, 2010  

  • Legends about people leaving the safety of underground caverns after a calamity on Earth point to where a possible advanced ancient civilization may have gone. Megalithic structures prove there were advanced people thousands of years ago.

    The ancient gods, angels and demons did not like hanging around most communities. Since class structure is so old, perhaps the remnants of these ancient clans still do not like mingling with common man and like to live apart. That is a very human thing to do. Yet, they could live and walk among us if they desired since they would look like us.

    Scientists speculate there should be more types of humans in the world and there aren't possibly because of a super volcano eruption over 70,000 years ago which decimated our population. Maybe there were survivors from other human races that moved underground then or later when Comet Encke is theorized by astronimers Clube and Napier to have broken up. That's a theory proposed by some for the Turkey underground cities at Cappadocia.

    There is proof that caves have been lived in and much of the earth is unexplored - caverns and the ocean. I wouldn't be so quick to label a theory that has more scientific evidence than aliens visiting us from the distant stars a lie. After all, Mac Tonnies and others haven't done that to the ETH theory... just point out its holes.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Wednesday, September 08, 2010  

  • While it may be that the overall details and specifics given by Mac Tonnies in support of his 'Cryptoterrestrial Hypothesis' are perhaps a bit too speculative and 'fantastic',(and despite the fact that he never intended for them to be anything other than his own musings) here's few points to consider
    ; Contrary to what you claim, there are many unexplored stretches of land on planet Earth, including not only large sections of forests like the Amazon , The Carpathians and even some vast forested areas in both the USA and Canada - some of which are notorious to those 'in the know' as areas of mysterious disappearances. In Brazil there are a few Native tribes living in the vicinity of unexplored caves where entrance is prohibited even to the Chiefs and Elders, who claim: "There's people living deep down. We leave them alone". These 'myths' abound in many parts of the world...Coincidence? Our oceans remain mostly unexplored in the totality of their vast expanses and depths. Finally a comment regarding the 'Hollow Earth'. In this regard the truth is likely a 'middle point between the extremes'. While it's a fact that the planet is not hollow -it has both an outer and inner core - the Earth's Crust (which can be as thick as 40 km under the continents)has a 'Swiss-cheese-like' structure. That means it probably contains vast, unexplored cavern systems that might very well contain totally 'alien' (i.e unknown and different from anything known to exist in the surface) ecological niches, which in turn could be the habitat of very unusual life forms.

    By Blogger Tatu, at Monday, January 14, 2013  

  • While it may be that Mac Tonnies’ specifics regarding his Cryptoterrestrial Hypothesis might be speculative and a bit fantastic (and despite the fact that he never intended for his hypothesis to be just that), I beg to differ from your assessment used to negate the validity of this and any similar theory concerning the possibility of hidden, unknown, intelligent (or otherwise) life forms on planet Earth:

    1) Contrary to what you claim, there are vast surface areas of wilderness still virtually unexplored by men: large stretches of the Amazon and adjacent forests and mountain ranges, The Carpathian mountains in Eastern Europe as well as other vast forested areas in both the USA and Canada – not to mention Asia and Africa.

    2) The Depths of our oceans remain to this very day essentially unexplored considering their total areas, its mass, etc…

    3) Regarding the ‘Hollow Earth Myth’. Here’s my take on it. Consider for a moment that as in the case of many of our Earth Mysteries, “the truth’ might be a ‘middle point between the extremes’: While it’s a fact that the Earth is not hollow, since it contains both an inner and an outer core, its crust is a different matter all together and not completely solid: Reaching a thickness of as much as 40 Km over certain continents, the crust is very likely of a ‘Swiss-cheese’ structure; that is, it containing vast cave systems that probably might be ecological niches of a totally ‘alien’ (i.e. completely unknown and different from anything known to exist on the surface) nature, which could in very well be the habitat of the most ‘unusual’ living creatures.

    By Blogger Tatu, at Monday, January 14, 2013  

  • The earth doesn't exist!

    By Blogger Liam Gribbin, at Friday, October 04, 2013  

  • Gotta love the debunkers, (especially the highly paid trolls, as recently widely revealed to the public) because, in their mad rush to push their miss-information/dis-information, they often reveal more truth than they obscurate, to the discerning reader... Chuckle......With that in mind, read the following. Gary

    Paid Gov’t and Corporate Internet Trolls Are Real

    By Blogger Gary Fleck, at Tuesday, April 15, 2014  

  • OUR~ HOLLOW EARTH ~ AMAZING What They Will NEVER Teach You in School – Where UFOS Come From

    By Blogger Gary Fleck, at Tuesday, April 15, 2014  

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