UFO Conjecture(s)

Monday, April 12, 2010

Why Roswell Will Never Be Solved by Nick Redfern

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With a blog-post title like that, you might think I have given up the hunt, lost my enthusiasm, or taken on a decidedly pessimistic approach to Roswell. I would, however, strongly disagree. Rather, my words are borne out of what I would say is a realistic and practical approach to the Roswell debate - or, perhaps, the Roswell problem is a better term.

And here's why I am certain that Roswell will never be resolved.

Unless you include whistle-blower documentation such as the MJ12 documents as being evidence in support of what happened - or did not happen - on the Foster Ranch, Lincoln County, New Mexico on the fateful day in early July 1947, the only real data of any significance that we have in-hand comes from the witnesses.

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And that's a good thing; a very good thing. The reason being that without the reports, testimony and recollections of the witnesses, all we would have would be a couple of pages of official documents (such as a 1-page FBI memo and a few other scant items), a handful of press-photographs, and a bunch of newspaper clippings. In other words, whatever happened at Roswell, it is thanks to the witnesses that we know something of significance occurred.

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So, witness testimony is massively important and has taken us to where we are today with respect to Roswell - which, unfortunately, is a confusing, hall-of-mirrors realm inhabited by tales of crashed UFOs, dead aliens, crash-test-dummies, Mogul-balloons, weather-balloons, flying-wings, Nazi-saucers, Japanese PoWs, Unit 731, V-2 rockets, atomic mishaps, and more. In other words, the witness testimony and second-hand and third-hand testimony is huge - but, rather than uniformly presenting one version of events, the testimony and data has merely muddied the waters even further.

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And there's another problem, and it's a big one; a very big one, in fact. Due to the passage of time and the inevitability of death, most of the witnesses are gone. Ten or fifteen years from now they will likely all be gone.

Then, with our (thus far) one and only meaningful source of data gone forever, how will we take Roswell further? How will we solve Roswell? Will we even be able to solve Roswell - ever? That's where I take issue with those who desperately want Roswell to be proved extraterrestrial before they, too, go to the big Hangar 18 in the sky, and who earnestly believe it will be solved, to the point where we have hard evidence, not just a body of intriguing, interesting and notable testimony.

Here's the problem that many fail to deal with in a level-headed fashion: witness testimony is vital to any investigation and can shed welcome light (sometimes a little light and sometimes a great deal of light) on matters of profound controversy - which Roswell most assuredly is. The problem, however, is that no matter how much testimony and witness material we get, that will still never, ever, definitively prove what happened at Roswell.

The reason the Roswell debate is ongoing - despite literally hundreds of people having offered testimony in varying degrees (first-hand, second-hand, third-hand, etc.) is because no-one has thus far delivered the goods. And by the goods, I mean, of course, a body, a body-part, undeniable extraterrestrial wreckage, or undeniable "Roswell UFO Files" that can be proved to have originated with one or more elements of the official world back in the late-1940s.

So, by 2025, when the Roswell research community will have likely lost its strongest and only source of quality data - the people and the witnesses - the only way we can ever hope to solve Roswell is by getting access to the bodies, the craft and the documentation - if such even exist.

So, let's go there:

1. THE DOCUMENTS:

If the device that came down on the Foster Ranch really was a weather-balloon, then the chances are that the amount of paperwork generated on the affair might have been so small that it will never surface - precisely because there's barely anything to see that we don't have already.

Similarly, if the Roswell craft was a Mogul Balloon, then, it seems that, from reading the USAF's report of 1994, documentation on the crash was never generated to any meaningful degree in the first place.

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And, if Roswell involved Japanese prisoners-of-war, as detailed in my Body Snatchers in the Desert book, well...everyone I spoke with said that because these were supposedly semi-illegal experiments (borne out of the human radiation experiments of the 1940s and 1950s - for which the official Government report on the 40s/50s experiments confirms countless files were destroyed years ago), all the files were destroyed to protect the guilty.

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So, in other words, logic dictates that substantial and significant paperwork would only exist if the Roswell event involved a crashed alien craft and bodies (or something else that was equally-weirdly fortean or anomalous).

But, the irony is that if E.T. really did crash on the Foster Ranch, then it is this paperwork more than any other that the Government will never,ever, let us see.

Consider the facts as we know them: the USAF checked, checked and checked again and found no paper-trail on Roswell (aside from a couple of pages, such as the already-known 1-page FBI document of July 1947), as did all of the other agencies approached.

The General Accounting Office could not find anything, and neither could Congressman Steven Schiff.

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Now, if the USAF's Mogul and crash-test dummy stories are indeed cover-stories (and not genuine attempts to put Roswell to rest), for the Air Force to lie to the GAO, and to lie to Schiff would suggest that any theoretical "Roswell Files" have to be buried so incredibly deep, and the USAF must be supremely confident (to lie on such a huge and widespread scale) that those files will never surface and cannot be accessed by anyone who isn't clued-in on what really happened. But if that is so, then how do we get the files?

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FOIA hasn't worked at all; Schiff couldn't do it; and the GAO got absolutely nowhere. So, this is a question I'd genuinely be interested in seeing people answer: in view of those points directly above in this paragraph, when the witnesses are all dead and we can only then go after the files, how will we get access to them? And Disclosure doesn't stand a chance in hell of working.

So, if we can't get the documents, what next? That just leaves the bodies and the craft.

2. THE BODIES:

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If the accounts of alien-bodies at Roswell were borne out of crash-test-dummy experiments, they wouldn't have been saved and stored in some secret hangar - that would be a totally insane scenario.

If they were Japanese: well, I was told that because the high-altitude experiments were failures, there was no reason to preserve the bodies. And again, that's totally logical: preserving for decades a bunch of mangled Japanese bodies would be manifestly absurd, because to do so would serve no purpose at all.

Indeed, the only possible reason why any potential bodies would be preserved and saved would be if they were alien in origin - or were, again, of some other weird, Fortean origin.

But, ironically, just like the paperwork, if bodies were found on, or near, the Foster Ranch, and they were alien, then they too would have to be buried so deep (perhaps literally!) that we can't get to them.

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And, remember: if the bodies were alien and were preserved, and still are preserved somewhere today, that place (such as a real-life equivalent of the mythical Hangar 18) would have to be a secure, sterile facility, where the corpses would require storage in the best preservation situation as possible. In other words, probably somewhere underground, in tightly-sealed canisters.

So, just with the paperwork: if Roswell involved aliens, then how do we access, photograph or steal alien bodies stored 50-feet underground, that are preserved in sealed containers and are no doubt heavily guarded?

The answer is simple: we can't.

So, we move onto number 3:

3. THE CRAFT:
As with the bodies, access to any Roswell craft of alien origins would be impossible to anyone outside of what would undoubtedly be a tightly-knit circle of people in-the-know.

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So, here's where we are currently at with Roswell: nearly everyone involved is dead. Fifteen years from now they will likely all be gone - and, to date, that's our only significant source of data on Roswell.

And, I just don't see (because of the reasons outlined above) how we can gain access to the documents, the bodies and the craft - if they exist.

Now before people get all emotional and defensive, bear in mind that my approach to the Roswell problem is not a defeatist or a pessimistic one. Rather, it's a realistic approach to the problem of solving Roswell. And by solving I do mean solving; not just gathering more testimony. Testimony can be great. But testimony is not proof. And we need proof, if we are to take Roswell to the next level.

I would be genuinely interested to hear how people think Roswell can be taken any further than it is now, when the witnesses are all gone and everything else, such as paperwork, bodies and materials (if it exists, of course) are all hidden far from prying eyes.

Unless the Government decides to release anything of an E.T. nature relative to Roswell, the fact is that we are very close to where Roswell will not be able to be taken any further, and we will be going around in circles; as, in many ways, we are already.

For example, you only have to check out some of the on-line debates about whether there were four bodies or five bodies recovered. Or whether or not a Mogul balloon was big enough to create the debris field at the Foster Ranch. These debates go on for days; sometimes they go on for weeks. Fucking weeks! But, those debates can never, ever resolve anything. All they can do is offer possibilities that this person is right, or that person is wrong.

I think it's very likely that 50 years from now, people (if they're still even interested in Roswell - which they may very well not be)) will still be debating the size of the debris field at the Foster Ranch; or why Marcel Sr didn't show Marcel Jr the memory-metal; or why the USAF has changed its story on Roswell several times.

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And, don't get me wrong: these are all highly important questions. But the reason we'll be forever doomed to asking them is because, unless the Government changes its stance, we stand zero chance of getting to the hard data that could solve Roswell.

That's not defeatist: it's realistic. The head-in-the-clouds approach of vainly hoping we'll all live to see Roswell resolved will solve nothing.

Now, with that all said, could there be an alternative to getting the answer and, ultimately, the proof? Well, the only thing I can remotely think of is if some old man or woman has at their home an Aladdin's Cave of aged and fading documentation that they illegally obtained before the lid clamped down on Roswell, and who are waiting for the right person to present it to.

Could such a thing happen? You'd damn well better hope it does.

Because, if it doesn't, there's absolutely no denying that Roswell will finally join all those other never-to-be-firmly-solved-and-proved mysteries that include (a) who killed JFK?; and (b) who was Jack the Ripper?

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33 Comments:

  • Interesting comments Nick, and exactly right. But I wonder...Witnesses may be dead or dying out and the paper trail either has been destroyed or so well hidden it will never be found (if indeed it existed int he first place, which i doubt). But perhaps there is one last way of coming up with some proof. I know that the various alleged debris fields have been visited and searched but for my money this seems like the most likely source of any evidence- by taking the top foot or two of sand/rocks over a huge area and painstakingly sifting and analysing it there may be *something* of relevance to be found. Considering how long ago the event is supposed to have happened I would find it unusual for the site, at the time, to have been cleansed beyond the reach of where forensic archealogy can now probe. It would be hugely expensive and time consuming but would put an end to the conundrum once and for all. As to your last questions- Dave Clarke, as you know, has mastered time travel was frequenting prostitutes in London at the time so I'm fingering him as Jack the Ripper. And if you look closely, just to the left of the grassy knoll, you can see a seven year old me wrestling manfully with a sniper's rifle. We are everywhere!

    By Blogger Andy, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Nick-

    Though you and I both differ on the true nature of the Roswell crash, I have a prediction:

    You and I will continue till our dying day to try to figure it all out.

    We have an obligation to truth and to history. Though the "ultimate proof" may not be forthcoming in our lifetimes, we are duty-bound to try to uncover every scrap of information possible so that future generations may continue the quest.

    Best,
    Tony

    AJB

    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Nick:

    Yes you are right, in a sense. We need the hardware, i.e. the documentation (of which there will be literally tons), the bodies and the alien craft. We don't need all three, just one will suffice, but to have all three would be far more satisfactory.

    But you go on with 'if this, if that', and so on when you don't need to. This is because surely the absence of any of these after 63 years is proof (to near certainty) that no such hard evidence exists.

    If you doubt me, please say how long this deceit (by one branch of the military of one country) can continue? Forever? and if so, why? Important (VERY important) scientific knowledge does not stay secret forever, does it? Especially when we on earth have absolutely no control over when another visit will occur.

    Stan Friedman goes on and on about 'absence of evidence' being different from 'evidence of absence'.
    Do you think we shall ever discover this 'evidence of absence'?

    There comes a time when you have to realise that the quest is getting nowhere for one reason only, because there is nothing to it, and never was.

    However, I shall be converted if one or more of the above 'hard evidence' comes forth and is proven, by reputable scientific examination, to indicate ETs did indeed visit planet Earth, in NM or maybe elsewhere, in summer 1947.

    By Blogger cda, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Nick

    I could not agree with you more inasmuch it's time for the subject to be a footnote, not the story.
    It was most likely a covert intelligence game of misinformation in the midst of a very cold war or simply a bungled leak full of compounded errors, etc ( take your pick). To go further is to be so far off the main story, that it is self evident, why nothing has come of it in terms of the nature of the actual phenomenon.
    I think you are one of the few people who draw clear lines between reporting, theorizing and inference. Kudos and best wishes.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • CDA-

    Now, now CDA. Things can and are kept officially secret for far longer than 63 years.

    May I suggest that you google key words: 75 year secrecy rule and 100 year secrecy rule?

    Much of the JFK assassination research (including scientific evidence) is subject to a 75 year secrecy statue.

    And in Scotland, similar government information/investigation results are subject to a 100 year secrecy rule!

    And I will never forget what some government officials said of the JFK investigation. When Allen Dulles, former Director of the CIA was questioned under oath about a particular CIA agent's potential knowledge of certain details of the assassination, he revealed much:

    CHIEF JUSTICE WARREN: Wouldn't he tell it under oath?
    DULLES: "No, he would not tell it under oath."
    CHIEF JUSTICE WARREN: "Why?"
    DULLES: "He ought not to tell it under oath. Maybe not even tell it to his own government."
    CHIEF JUSTICE WARREN: "Wouldn't he tell such things to his own Chief?"
    DULLES: "He might or he might not."

    CDA, things are kept secret -including scientific evidence - for a very, very long time. And those "in the know" sometimes will not ever tell anything to anyone!

    AJB

    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Andy:

    There have been digs out at the site. The SyFy Channel was heavily involved in one. But, all such attempts and searches have come up zero. So far, at least...

    LOL re Dave C!

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Tony:

    You're right: we should not stop looking. My concern, however, is that all we will ever get is more testimony, more second and third hand stories, but never the proof.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • CDA:

    As per my post, I believe that the ONLY scenario which allows for anyt theoretical wreckage, bodies and files to still exist is if Roswell involved ET (or, as per my post, some other Fortean anomaly).

    Could that evidence be hidden, in theory, forever? It could, and it depends on how and why it's kept.

    If the Roswell event involved (let's say), a 30-foot damaged craft, 5 bodies and a bunch of debris, and if the military collected it all, in terms of the physical space to store it all, that would present no problem.

    Now, people talk about back-engineering crashed UFOs (at Area 51 etc), but if you look at the original accounts, there seemed to be a lack of powerplant, engines etc found at the Roswell crash site.

    Now, that may well be because (as per Mogul or my Body Snatchers) it WAS a balloon.

    But, if we play devil's advocate for a moment, what if ET technology is so appropriately weird and alien that there never was an "engine" or "powerplant"?

    What if there was just some device made of a super-strong material that exploded and, as a consequence, ALL the government has is the bodies and the debris?

    There would be no craft to back-engineer, and so all that any team would have to work with would be the debris. If so, that could easily be done in a small, closed environment and maybe it has.

    And maybe, because all they have is debris, nothing much has been learned, and it literally is just stored away now somewhere - rather than (as some assume) being the subject of some still-ongoing huge research/back-engineering project.

    Of course, this is all mere speculation on my part, and should be seen as nothing else!

    But I merely use this scenario to point out how it might be very easy for anyone hiding any such materials to keep it hidden - if the Govt feels it has gone as far as it can with its study of the material and bodies, and so it's all packed away somewhere.

    Or, it could indeed be as you said: nothing was found, because there is nothing to find!

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Bruce
    Thanks for the words. In ternms of a covert intel game, I always refer people to Bernard Newman's novel, The Flying Saucer, which eerily demonstrated decades ago how faked crashed saucer stories could be used in intel ops.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Nick,

    I disagree. The reason for all the paperwork is the mythic buildup surrounding the event. Remember when the balloon crashed everyone got all fired excited about FINALLY having one of those "flying saucers" to examine. The Mogul was classified in itself so it served the military's best interests to keep things ambiguous as to it's origins.

    The concept of a saucer crash fits well with a nuts and bolts "jet age" culture, but not with an advanced civilization so far above us their technology is as magic to us. How could they crash? There are reports of these beings walking through walls and traveling light years through space. Would their ships be so flimsy to crash?

    It also seems to me that large conspiracies are, in themselves, impossible to keep quiet. Los Alamos is frequently LOSING hard drives and the IRS loses laptops. So much for security. Also the CIA's super secret mind control experiments, MK-ULTRA, were easily uncovered by a New York Times journalist. Hell, let's not forget Watergate. If the President can't keep a secret...

    My point is that conspiracies are made of people. People are fallible and they talk. There would have to be contractors, doctors, sanitation workers and other people with "dirty jobs" who would probably have something to say.

    The myth has grown too large for people who dedicated their lives to it to let it go. On one level I agree with other researchers who say this has been too much of a distraction and takes focus away from other more viable cases.

    Me, I believe life is out there. I just don't think it commutes.

    By Blogger Author, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Hello, Nick.

    Interesting post and blog. A daily read for me. May I ask if that is a coyote skull you are holding in the photo? Regards.

    By Anonymous richard, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Author:

    I agree that the idea of these beings crashing doesnt fit well with the supposed near-magical powers that are attributed to them re abductions etc, which is why I personally think Roswell probably wasn't ET, and was probably more along the lines of a classified balloon-op (but not Mogul).

    But, IF Roswell WAS alien, I would disagree with your following words:

    "It also seems to me that large conspiracies are, in themselves, impossible to keep quiet. Los Alamos is frequently LOSING hard drives and the IRS loses laptops. So much for security. Also the CIA's super secret mind control experiments, MK-ULTRA, were easily uncovered by a New York Times journalist. Hell, let's not forget Watergate. If the President can't keep a secret..."

    Well, if Roswell is a "large conspiracy" it obviously HASN'T been kept quiet because numerous people ARE talking about it!

    The important difference between Roswell and MKUltra and Watergate etc, is that the mainstream media is willing to go after things like the Watergate story and MKUltra.

    And part of that reason is that they are seen as legitimate news stories that have a basis in conspiracies.

    But the mainstream media laughs at Roswell.

    OF COURSE Watergate was solved, because there was deep media investigation, funding from media etc etc, and the lid was blown open.

    None of the major media outlets in the US have any interest in (hypothetically) assigning a team of 8 leading journalists for 2 years to once-and-for-all get to the bottom of Roswell, because they view it as a ridiculous thing/event based on fantasy, hoaxing etc.

    In the eyes of the media, a conspiracy like Watergate is seen as believable and worthy of their investigation.

    They see Roswell as not worthy, and something just for the crazies.

    Really, the only reason why a major news network has not cracked open a big UFO conspiracy is very simple: they don't feel it's worth their time (and reputations) looking for it.

    So, really, it doesn't matter if the conspiracy is being talked about by us, or military old-timers are telling their accounts - because those of us in Ufology are the only ones listening.

    Could a major news outlet get much further if they really tried hard to dig as far as possible into Roswell, and with a crack-team of journalists? Maybe. But they won't.

    And that's one of the reasons why - if there is a roswell secret being hidden - it's so easy to keep it hidden. The very people who could blow it wide open aren't looking.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Nick:

    You have it precisely right!

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Hey Richard

    Yes it is. It was alleged to be one of the so-called "Texas Chupacabras" (a nonsense, media term for what are unfortunately just diseased animals), and was given to me last summer, 2009, by none other than MUFON legend Walt Andrus, who had been given the skull by the person who found it.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Nick me old mucker

    Can someone finally track down that lass from Cornwall who appeared on the "This Morning" Programme, when the "Roswell" film was released in 1996?

    OK, it's only one more witness, second hand, but the photo and the fact, her father died in 1974. after telling her the whole tale, on his death bed, might just rattle a few cages?

    Regards
    Steve Mills

    By Blogger steve, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Hi Steve

    Good to hear from you again!

    Unfortunately, I'm not sure who the person you're referring to is. Do you have any more info on her?

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Ye', Nick, but what this all boils down to is your intensely practical, highly grounded nature, seeing no way to take Roswell further, being irritated by others who for one reason or another still vaunt it as a case of the utmost importance.

    Well, for them it is, just like for many Americans - even contemporary kids - the Beatles and Elvis are still of the utmost importance.

    Ditto Shakespeare, James Dean, Marilyn Monroe - all around the world; England's 1966 World Cup win - in England.

    That's charisma (a.k.a. baraka, mana, magic, etc.) for you - for some it energizes, for others it burns.

    Roswell is as charismatic as such things can be - that's not its fault.

    You're the most charismatic ufologist/'paranormalist' out there - that's not your fault.

    Yet you too have your detractors who see you as supposedly reducing the 'paranormal' field to a side issue to the greater glory of your ego.

    I on the other hand see you as a prototype of precisely the sort of 'rockstar' type figures needed to broaden the field's demographic profile beyond its usual 20th Century girlfriendless obsessive Comic Book Guy types.

    But I also suggest there may be more than people suspect to this whole magnetization process which draws people - in both adoration and hostility - to certain people, certain talismanic media manifestations, certain historic episodes or events.

    Roswell is a koan which for some reason people can't stop turning over in their minds: you're even doing it here while supposedly exhorting others to realise the near pointlessness of it - why? Why are you even remotely arsed?

    I'm not getting at you - I'm probably you're greatest admirer out there!

    I'm just suggesting there may be an unsuspected but important 'ecological' principle operating here, and your raising it once again as an issue of debate, rather than being foolishness, actually reflects the sheer power - the sheer necessity - of that principle.

    By Anonymous alanborky, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Glad to see you prospering young man.

    In 1996 when they made that Film about Roswell, Richard and Judy interviewed this lass, on the This Morning Show, who grew up in Cornwall, she was the daughter of an RAF pilot who died of cancer in 1974.

    On his death bed he told her the whole Roswell tale, replete with ship and bodies. She assumed, in 1974, it was nothing more than the ramblings of a drug addled dying man.

    She had no interest in Sci Fi or UFOs but told a few mates the story anyway. years alter when the Roswell film was being publicised ,her mates said, "Isn't that exactly what your dad said in 1974, before he died"?

    Realising that it was exactly the same tale, she did a little back ground on it. Her father had claimed, as an RAF officer, he had been seconded to the 509th bomber group , i would imagine to learn the ropes of what was involved with flying nuclear equipped bombers.

    So the lass thinks well, i can confirm that part by contacting the USAF. So she did, they denied it flat out, saying; "No Brits had ever served with the 509th, ever". Only thing is, she has a Black and White photo of her father with a bunch of aircrew, in contemporary flying gear, standing under a big sign, saying. "Welcome to Roswell home of the 509th".

    I've even contacted Stanton etc to try and get some movement on this, but Stanton ,bless his beard, confuses this lass with another one whose father is an American, but she moved to Britain to live. This is a wholly new witness the the Americans, so far, i haven't found one who has heard of her story.


    Given how she could be well ensconced on the Roswell gravy train with her story, it blows the whole myth of, nothing before 1978 and Stanton's interview, clean out of the water. The fact she hasn't tried to seek any more publicity since that interview with Richard and Judy, suggests she might well be credible and her tale needs to be brought to a much wider audience?

    I've tried contacting This morning by mail and by phone but i get the impression you get the chuffin tea person dealing with inquiries and they simply can't be arsed to go back and check their records. I think if someone saying they are writing a book with a couple under their belt were to call them, they might get a little further with it.

    The old.. " So, in my book, i can quote you as refusing to help and not explaining fully as to why, when i contact your bosses?" routine, might work?


    Cheers Steve

    By Blogger steve, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Hey Nick. I am inclined to agree with Author with regard to large conspiracies. MK-ULTRA and Watergate differ with regard to Roswell and the ET scene in general, in that they were exposed with hard evidence. And as leery as mainstream journalism may be with regard to Roswell type stories, I suspect that a dose of hard evidence would change all that overnight. People TALK about Roswell certainly, but were it a real conspiracy (and a real ET event)i think it would have yeilded something more solid and definitive in the ensuing years, than the highly ambiguous and inconclusive evidence we have. I could be entirely wrong, obviously, but I wonder: is there any comparable example of something this BIG being kept under wraps for this LONG? And as well, Roswell is the kind of thing where, if it were a reality, surely one or other of the hands it went through would have felt a compulsion to get the evidence out there? Keeping secrets is hard at the best of times, but how do you keep a secret that effects the whole of mankind and all of human history?

    By Blogger Tristan Eldritch, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Hey Alan:

    Cheers for the post!

    You ask re my article: "Why are you even remotely arsed?"

    For non-Brits that means "Why are you even remotely bothered?" LOL.

    Basically, I don't think we should give up Roswell research at all.

    But, by writing the post, I'm trying to help people realize that endlessly debating Roswell (yes, I KNOW the irony is that is what I'm doing right now!!) and arguing over a weather balloon vs. a Mogul balloon; or 5-bodies recovered vs. 4-bodies recovered, is not - and never will - get us anywhere.

    We have to move on and realize that all of the debate that is generated as a result of witness testimony can't really take us any further than it is right now.

    I don't know for sure - and neither does anyone else, outside of some potentially-real group buried in Govt - if there ARE bodies, craft and files stored somewhere.

    But if there ARE, the challenge (and, more importantly, the problem) is to find them. However, as I noted, there are huge obstacles against that.

    So that's my motivation, to get people away from endlessly debating on what Brazel said or what Marcel said. We all KNOW what they said, and endlessly recycling it gets us nowhere anymore.

    So, we should move on, try and look at other ways of getting the Roswell evidence (as i discussed, and which may be literally unfeasible to get it, if it exists), or focus on the fact that there is a tremendous amount of OTHER non-Roswell data in support of a genuine UFO presence among us - and utterly stop with this idea that Roswell is the Holy Grail that Ufology is dependent upon to prove its case - which it isn't.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Steve

    Very interesting. I've not heard that story at all. The best I can think of is to post something on a few message-boards and see if anyone has an old video-recording of the show. That might open it up a bit more and lead to tracking the woman down.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Tristan

    As I mentioned, if ET did crash at Roswell (which I strongly doubt), then the assumption that the material/bodies have been exposed to 1000s of people, who might conceivably blow the whistle, is a valid one.

    But here's the thing: there ARE people who claim to have handled the wreckage and bodies etc, back-engineered it etc.

    But none of them have delivered the literal goods. Maybe that is, as you suggest, because there are no ET goods to deliver.

    If there are goods, it's only when someone releases them or leaks them that the major, influential media will get on the story.

    That lack of such a leak of physical, hard evidence leads me to believe that either it doesn't exist, or is buried so deep that it might as well not exist.

    Either way, if we are to solve Roswell, we have to find an alternative way in to the secret - if there even is one.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Nick

    I've tried already, been on This Morning fan sites, reported the story of several other forums and nowt, not a dickey bird. We need someone with a *name* to contact This Morning and get their arses shifted.

    BTW, conspiracies can be kept by the simple expediency of clever filing. Say you want to hie some chemical research into destroying crops? Simple, stick it in the Ministry of Agriculture's area of expertise. So anyone asks the MOD ..Are you working on poisons to destroy corps? They can say no and you won't find any of the files at the MOD.. Cos they are all in the secret files of the Ministry of Agriculture..


    With Roswell i'd be asking the American met office for all their records from the summer of 47, likewise the Department of Immigration, The department of health, for *notifiable diseases* in the summer of 47...

    Finally and most importantly, I'd be after the Navy's files for 47, I'm guessing the moment the story came out it was the navy put the kibosh on it and took all the debris. See the USAF is telling the truth, in so much as, they don;t have the wreckage, they just ain't telling us who has, cos they can still invoke the *secret rule* on that one.


    There's a reason Frank Black was wearing a Navy Uniform in the TV series Dark Skies ;-)

    By Blogger steve, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Steve:

    That might be the way something might surface - if there are peripheral files, or something similar that has been overlooked by the keepers of the secret (presuming there ARE keepers of the secret!).

    But, even if there are peripheral files that could shed further light on Roswell, who is to say those agencies don't have their files buried so deep too?

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • Ah, now that's where often these conspiracies of silence trip themselves up.

    Say, they did bury some files under another department so the deniability becomes *fact*. Ie, we don't have any files.

    The chances are those files were handed to someone they trusted in that department and were simply filed without the knowledge of the rest of the department. That person is no, long gone. However the files could well be sitting there unopened since the day they were stashed there. Why? Cos no-one in that department knows they have them.

    How about? A request for disclosure on all the RAF-USAF liaison files for 47-51? If we can find this lass, we know who's name to look for don't we?

    By Blogger steve, at Tuesday, April 13, 2010  

  • This is a well argued piece, Nick and a good summation, as far as it goes, of the state of play.

    It feels though like we're getting into meta-analysis: analysing why we're thinking and doing what we're thinking and doing about what others were thinking and doing. This is the circular bit.

    Are we getting hung up on the perceived need for forensic evidence? This is very legalistic and, as we are quite aware, legal processes often don't elicit the truth. They just elicit the reasons why people should or shouldn't be punished. That's hardly an attitude which encourages transparency and actual witness evidence.

    History is a much wider forum than this narrow, legalistic court of Roswell. One of the most difficult things we learn in life is that some things are true even though the evidence is very thin, and some things are false no matter how many the lie's proponents or their credibility.

    At the end of the day, we each have to weigh what we know about e.g. JFK's assassination or 9/11 and come to our own conclusions, based on our personal application of logic and perspective.

    For me personally, the Roswell alien craft crash happened. My uncle was a USAF captain. He was the most honest, most unflappable, most patriotic and taciturn man you could wish to meet - just the sort of guy you really hope has his finger on the actual red button.

    My uncle was based at Roswell. Back in the late '60s before ETs and UFOs had barely been thought of, he told us kids the history from his calm, measured and rational perspective. I still have no reason to doubt anything he said in support of such an apparently fantastic event. Most things that well-respected researchers have since 'discovered' accord with my uncle's plain, simple account.

    For me, the word of a much trusted, rational and usually taciturn man who had absolutely nothing to gain one way or another is all the proof I need. Legal standard proof is not always the most reliable mode of evidencing an alleged event. In fact it's amongst the poorest because of its use.

    Perhaps it's time to come at Roswell from a different, wider perspective? Personally, I'm far more concerned about all those Roswellians who were profoundly negatively affected by their involvement with the crash and whose lives were blighted by it. Scores of ordinary people don't turn to drink and drugs and have nervous breakdowns for no reason in a small town. Not only will there be remnants of e.g. doctors' accounts of their patients, there will be scores of family histories. These are likely to be far more honest and revealing than dry old government documents!

    This would be to take Roswell further and over the massive obstacle that keen researchers have built. After all, what's the motivating factor for wanting 'proof'? Is it to castigate the government for duplicity and score points? It certainly doesn't look like researchers have ever really gone further than that: to the implications and impact on the lives of ordinary humans of ET contact. The former denotes a mindset that appears to be almost as callous that of officialdom, the latter gives indication of care and openminded desire to learn and support those who have been affected. And surely, the end point of ET/UFO research has to be learning not for points scoring, career enhancing or technology ripoffs, but for how we, as a species, can successfully get to grips with real relationships with real sentient beings from other places in the universe.

    By Anonymous sam, at Saturday, April 17, 2010  

  • Sam,

    A very well-written but specious argument. The need for forensic evidence isn't "legalistic", it's called science. One can't just believe in such a world shaking thing such as extra-terrestrial life crashing on Earth without scientific evidence.

    You also go on to imply that the assassination of JFK and the attacks of 9/11 were subjective events whose causes are a matter of opinion and not based on verifiable facts. That is quite silly.

    I will not undermine your feelings for your uncle. But you cannot offer as evidence a story you were told by your uncle when you were kids. I had a family friend who told me stories of a lake monster that lived in a lake near his home. As an adult I found out that the lake we visited as kids, was man-made and could never be the home for such a creature. Our friend was just a good story teller.

    I'm not saying your uncle lied. However he could have been telling stories that he heard in order to impress his nephew. He certainly wouldn't have been telling Top Secret information to relatives if he was under orders not to do so.

    Stories without facts are just stories. If one is to base their lives on well told stories they will find themselves constantly uprooted by every tall tale that comes their way.

    By Blogger Author, at Saturday, April 17, 2010  

  • Sam

    Thanks for the comment, and you raise good points.

    To me, the most important one you raise is: "...hat's the motivating factor for wanting 'proof'?"

    This lies at the heart of the Roswell debate. There are people within Ufology who have devoted their lives to Roswell, and don't want to face up to the possibility that they will go to their graves not having hard proof of what happened at Roswell.

    I won't mention a name, but at th 2008 UFO Crash-Retrieval gig in Vegas, I had an interesting conversation with a well-known figure in Roswell research who got very defensive when I said (something like this): "It's not impossible that ET did crash and you're correct in your view. But the problem is that you can't prove it."

    He basically ranted: "I can prove it! I have the proof! The proof is the witnesses!"

    Well, no it isn't. Testimony is testimony. Proof of a UFO crash at Roswell would be physical evidence of some sort.

    And that's why the Roswell debate goes on and on. People cannot accept we'll never really know (in terms of having proof, at least) what happened.

    It's like the debate going on at Kevin Randle's blog right now. The last post on Roswell has something like 260 comments!!!

    On the one hand, that demonstrates the sheer interest that the case provokes, even after 63 years.

    But on the other hand, the fact that even after 260 comments, we're no closer to proving what happened, demonstrated the futility of deep and heated debate on Roswell. It cannot solve anything because of the age of the case/passage of time.

    We do need a new approach if we are to solve Roswell, or find anything more of significance that goes beyond witness accounts.

    But, as per my post, I don't see how we can do that.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, April 18, 2010  

  • Hi Sam-

    I would very much like to e-mail you relative to your Uncle. You mention he was stationed at RAAF and told you and your family back in the 1960's about the reality of the crash.

    Please e-mail RRRGroup at rrrgroup (at) gmail.com to obtain my private email. I would be grateful if you contacted me so that we can discuss this privately.

    Best,
    Tony Bragalia

    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Sunday, April 18, 2010  

  • Nick

    I agree, scientific method is essential. But the scale of cover-up and fear at Roswell were effective: the well-oiled system worked as it was designed to. Just in this case (like others), science is unlikely to find evidence that will support 'ultra-beyond reasonable doubt' level proof that seems to be necessary here.

    If we can't trust the word of people like Jesse Marcel, father and son who, in any other court, would be trusted completely, then who can we trust? Would we ever believe that a piece of anomalous material is actually part of the downed craft? Would we ever believe that leaked document or this on the ground sitrep are kosher? Would we ever believe those photos of apparently dead aliens are real? Even if we got Oprah Winfrey to visit the underground bunker where the bodies are stored, would we believe her report on TV the next day?

    I think this is partly my point. The 'cover-up system' relies on people disbelieving each other. Your response about my uncle sort of illustrates what I mean. We live in a profoundly suspicious, closed minded age generally where no one is trusted to tell the truth. Of course you're right to have some scepticism about my uncle: you don't know him or me or his security clearance/the degree to which the AF trusted him. If this information was Top Secret, it was anyway common knowledge to all at the base and mentioned en passant as fact from what I understood. All I can say is I am certain beyond reasonable doubt that his account was about as factual and rational as anyone could hope for and that this level-headed and normally taciturn and discreet man had no project to impress, scare or brag. (Nor have I for that matter. I have an interest in Roswell now because of what I learnt way before UFOs/ETs were of interest to the general public. I have no interest in publicity or attention. In fact, I wish I'd not said anything, but having done so will defend my knowledge and my own level-headed construction.)

    As Anthony Bragalia exhorts, I suggest this is another one of those 'every scrap of information' situations. I offer this scrap of information in a spirit of bona fide, genuine interest in achieving truth. Critical mass and all that...
    [continued]

    By Anonymous Sam, at Monday, April 19, 2010  

  • [continued]

    I think this is partly my point. The 'cover-up system' relies on people disbelieving each other. Your response about my uncle sort of illustrates what I mean. We live in a profoundly suspicious, closed minded age generally where no one is trusted to tell the truth. Of course you're right to have some scepticism about my uncle: you don't know him or me or his security clearance/the degree to which the AF trusted him. If this information was Top Secret, it was anyway common knowledge to all at the base and mentioned en passant as fact from what I understood. All I can say is I am certain beyond reasonable doubt that his account was about as factual and rational as anyone could hope for and that this level-headed and normally taciturn and discreet man had no project to impress, scare or brag. (Nor have I for that matter. I have an interest in Roswell now because of what I learnt way before UFOs/ETs were of interest to the general public. I have no interest in publicity or attention. In fact, I wish I'd not said anything, but having done so will defend my knowledge and my own level-headed construction.)

    As Anthony Bragalia exhorts, I suggest this is another one of those 'every scrap of information' situations. I offer this scrap of information in a spirit of bona fide, genuine interest in achieving truth. Critical mass and all that...

    I think an important related point is that we may achieve more if we go wider, as I said, on this and other similar investigations. I sincerely believe we have to be far more open-minded and supportive of witnesses - not just interested in ripping scientific/legal level proof out of them. These sort of anomalous events are shocking to the human psyche. When most dismiss witnesses as of dubious veracity then I believe that researchers are missing/overlooking perhaps vital clues. I think we have to ease our reliance on 'the authorities' for 'the truth'. It's not likely that authorities will ever back down having covered-up. Our greatgrandchildren perhaps will have access to dis-embargoed files. But it's not politic to open these now whilst there are too many living witnesses and those of us who are personally connected in some way: imagine the law suits that would fly around!

    Also, I wanted to say that I'm not sure I understand the inference you took about my comment on 9/11 or JFK's assassination. That these events happened is certainly not subjective. And we each have our opinions on their actual causes/perpetrators. At the end of the day, because the evidence in each case is so disputed, we each have to draw our own conclusions based on what we know - which is exactly what a court jury is called to do.

    I understand your point about being uprooting by every tall tale that comes along. Not a preferable modus vivendi indeed! I'm merely saying that in cases that are so contentious as e.g. Roswell, JFK and 9/11 where there are serious deviations from the official accounts then one often has little option but to trust one's own judgement based on all the available evidence. I still have faith that human beings can (and probably regularly do) come to well-founded and reasonably accurate opinions based on the spectrum of evidence rather than the narrow, sometimes tall tales, of officialdom!

    I hope I've clarified some things and I'd like to thank you for your consideration of these issues.

    By Anonymous Sam, at Monday, April 19, 2010  

  • Sam-

    Many thanks for your continued reply. But I beseech you to please email me privately through RRRgroup@gmail.com

    I assure you of your complete confidentiality. You can even use a hushmail or other anonymous email service.

    Your obligation is to truth and to history. I have no interest in dragging you into the Roswell furor. But if you could provide to me your Uncle's name, we can check it against the RAAF Yearbook for 1947 and other resources I have available. This will go a long way towards confirmation, to obtaining
    "every scrap of information" possible, and to furthering our understanding of the event.

    I hope to hear from you soon.

    Best,
    Tony Bragalia

    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Monday, April 19, 2010  

  • Excellent blog entry by Nick R.! I'm sorry to have only found it now, but am glad I did!

    Project Mogul, mixed with a dash of disinfo, confabulations and outright lies and we have the myth of a Roswell UFO Crash.

    By Blogger Brownie, at Friday, May 21, 2010  

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