The UFO Iconoclast(s)

Sunday, August 01, 2010

HOW THE ROSWELL CRASH HAPPENED by Anthony Bragalia

Copyright 2010, InterAmerica, Inc. (Permission needed to publish the material verbatim. Fair Use obviously okay, and links are always preferred.)

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Many rightly wonder why an ET vehicle with the ability to traverse light years through the cosmos would arrive all the way to Earth - only to crash in New Mexico. How is it that an interplanetary people with such advanced aerial technology could come to such grief on the July-baked desert floor? Why did the Roswell craft fall in the first place? A review and analysis of the 1947 incident reveals a unique "confluence of events" that may well have led to the crash:

THE STORM ELECTRIC

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It is said that Mac Brazel had reported hearing a loud explosion during a severe lightning and thunder storm the night before he had discovered the crash debris on the Foster Ranch that he had managed. RAAF Intel Agent Major Jesse Marcel reported that the scattered debris had appeared to him to have "exploded" in mid-air before hitting the ground.

Weather records do in fact confirm that there were thunderstorms in late June and early July of 1947 (including on July 2 and July 4) in the Foster Ranch area where some of the crash debris was found. And - as with many areas of the country - in the summertime (particularly in the evenings) such isolated but severe storms can "pop up" without notice in an instant, only to pass as quickly - and often without even being officially recorded.

The action of severe storms on aircraft is still a subject of intense study. Today's aircraft do tend to disperse and distribute a lightning strike across and throughout the surface and skin of the craft. Electrical and digital flight systems are also insulated and shielded, helping to prevent a crash. Still, there is no doubt that many hundreds of aircraft do indeed fall from the skies around the world every year due to especially adverse weather conditions. "Freak" weather can "freak out" even the most fortified and hardened technologies.

Interestingly (and perhaps tellingly) it has been recently discovered that certain aircraft -under certain conditions - can themselves promote lightning discharge. In the scientific report "Aviation Weather Surveillance Systems" (P. Mahapatra, RJ Doviak, et al) we learn: "Three major research programs for studying lightning-aircraft interaction focused on lightning strikes in summer thunderstorms. It was learned that the major factor relative to strikes to aircraft is not the amount of natural lightning activity, but the potential presence of an ambient electric field sufficient to initiate a discharge on an aircraft. To trigger a lightning discharge, a conductive aircraft should be in a strong electrical field either inside or outside an electrical cloud."

If the "presence of an ambient electric field" inside or outside the craft is sufficiently strong, lightning attraction and lightning-induced malfunction can occur. ET's craft may have itself generated a "strong electrical field" increasing the chances of lightning strike. And - as will be shown next - there indeed appears to have been yet another "ambient field of energy" at play near Roswell that may have helped contribute to the fall of the ET craft:

SECRET EXPERIMENTAL RADAR

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Is it possible that especially powerful, experimental radar beams could have in some way interfered with or "clouded" the navigation and control systems of the ET craft? Could such high-energy transmission and detection systems (which were often placed in a triangulated configuration) have created a malfunction and crash? Was this new modulation unfamiliar to ET - one for which they were unprepared? Did our beaming systems emanate at a frequency or in a path that had adversely penetrated their craft? Or did it somehow displace an energy field that was surrounding the craft? Radar is a pulsed radio signal, a form of electromagnetic radiation. Highly-tuned ET craft may have been sensitive to such radiation.

Little known is that the US Government at that time had maintained an interconnected "beyond the fence" radar network. This secret network had served two purposes. It had helped to protect White Sands Proving Ground, Sandia National Lab and Los Alamos National Lab from aerial intrusion. It was also used for the "far-field" tracking of missiles launched from White Sands. Errant V-2's as early as May of 1947 had crashed their way to Mexico. There was no way that wayward rocket launches could ever get into the hands of civilians or foreign nationals. And our national laboratories needed to be protected from any possible foreign strikes from the air. This covert "outside the fence" radar program helped to provide maximum coverage as it monitored these vitally important skies.

Some of these radar facilities were mobile, highly experimental and lacked more exact "control" of beam path and range. Some of their designs did not have the quality to "contain the energy" as more permanent installations did. If such radar beams played a role in the crash, the radar operators likely did not know that the radar had helped to bring down the craft. The radar was not meant to be used as a weapon. It was an unwitting and non-offensive event. Otherwise, military would surely have gotten to the craft before civilians Mack Brazel and Dee Proctor did- and they would not have had to have been alerted by Brazel to the crash.

The radar project involved highly-classified radar installations that were located at remote off-sites. Towers and arrays were sometimes even sited on private property. Area ranchers and locals knew of the existence of these radar installations (usually hidden in wooded or hilly areas) but said nothing out of a sense of patriotic duty and perhaps through financial inducements. This is a little discussed piece of post WWII history - even by military historians.

Such radar systems were found in places like tiny El Vado, NM. One was called "The Continental Divide." There was a radar station located just north of US 60 about 45 miles west of Socorro. Another site was a radar tower on the road to the spread of NM rancher Marvin Ake, 10 miles south of State Rd. 60 between Magdelena and Datil. Yet another was near Oscura Park, some miles just outside of White Sands itself.

Given how we know that UFOs are reported to be able to disrupt our cars, TVs and radios through their emanated frequencies and radiations - isn't it possible that the reverse could be true? Could our technology have (in some as yet unknown way) affected their technology? According to a treatise entitled "Electromagnetic Compatibility": "After World War II the military became increasingly concerned with the effects of nuclear electromagnetic pulse (NEMP), lightning strike and even high-powered radar beams on mobile vehicles of all kinds and especially on aircraft electrical systems."

Could a unique and dynamic interplay of lightning, powerful radar beams and the ET craft's own generated energy field have in some way brought it down?

And still other reasons could have come into play, contributing to the crash:

INTERNAL MALFUNCTION

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Engineered systems are often highly complex, with much room for malfunction. One can only imagine the intricacy and sophistication of an other-world spacecraft. Internal malfunctions of spacecraft (either during operations or training for space-flight) have killed 29 astronauts. In fact, five percent of all those who have ever been launched to space have died! Such malfunctions have included exposure to the vacuum of space; structural failure; control failure; separation failure; airlock design fault; tank rupture; and numerous shorts and leaks. Could a component or device onboard or within the ET craft's structure have failed to operate as intended? ET's technology may not always perform its normal, proper and characteristic actions.

PILOT ERROR

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All creatures are fallible. No one is perfect. Everyone who has ever walked on this planet has suffered an accident of some sort at some time. So too it must be with those who walk other planets. It is a universal constant. No living thing can always be accurate or correct in their calculations.

Pilot error (or cockpit error) is a cause of an accident where an airworthy aircraft's pilot is considered responsible for the crash. Such an accident can be due to the pilot's disregard for standard operating procedures, a lapse in judgment, an oversight, diverted attention or a failure to execute due diligence. It is certainly not inconceivable -and is in fact probable - that like Man, ET is subject to such mistakes.

TWO UFOS IN COLLISION OR BATTLE?

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Is it possible that more than one ET craft was flying over the skies of New Mexico at the same time that summer? Perhaps there were antagonistic forces at work. If there were competing adversaries from another world who had come to ours, maybe they became aerial assailants. Foes in flight, one was struck to the ground and left to be discovered by Man.

Or perhaps they were not enemies. It is conceivable that they may have collided, just as we experience mid-air collisions. Mid-air collision is generally caused by deviation from flight plans, miscommunication, a navigational error or severe weather conditions. And such collisions are not at all that rare. A world-wide FAA analysis shows that in nearly every single year since 1951 notable civilian or military mid-air collisions have occurred, with aggregate fatalities totaling in the thousands.

UFO traffic was heavy at the time in that area. UFO sightings had markedly spiked in New Mexico in the time period of the Roswell crash. And there were in fact indications of another UFO flying above New Mexico that had crashed during that time frame (see my prior article "The Other Roswell Crash: The Secret of the Plains Revealed".)

ANTI-AIRCRAFT FIRE

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Some speculate that early on in the modern UFO era there were those reactionaries in government and intelligence who viewed such aerial unknowns over our skies as a serious potential military threat. After all, these craft were not authorized to over fly our country and their intentions and origin could not be discerned. They were "illegal" and a national security risk. They were often sighted flying with impunity near military installations, in the path of our jets and close-by our National Labs. Given this justification some UFOs may have been intentionally shot at by ground-based anti-aircraft fire as well as from our own planes and jets.

Retired Lockheed-Martin "Skunk Works" R&D Senior Scientist Boyd Bushman maintains that he had heard many decades ago (through a trusted Naval source) that is indeed exactly what had happened- and that an experimental beam weapon had shot down the Roswell craft. His testimony (like similar testimony offered by former NM State Senator Andrew Kissner) is controversial and hearsay, but worthy of consideration as a possible reason why the Roswell craft crashed. Perhaps ET did not believe that we would ever do such a thing- or perhaps they did not think that our firepower or weapons could harm them. Or maybe they were in an unguarded moment and didn't see it coming - and just didn't react quickly enough.

A SAUCER AND MOGUL ENTANGLED?

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There is something often forgotten about now deceased skeptic Karl Pflock. Before he became a skeptic, he was a believer. Pflock had actually maintained that both the Mogul and the ET craft explanations for the crash were likely correct. Skeptic Phil Klass detailed Pflock's then-Roswell-view in his comments on Pflock's 1994 book "Roswell in Perspective." Klass summarized Pflock's theory in his "SUN" newsletter:

"Pflock speculates that some of the debris found by Brazel might have come from an extraterrestrial craft which had either collided with the Project Mogul balloon or which may have made a violent maneuver in order to avoid a collision, in some way causing both the balloon and the UFO to crash."

Pflock at that time believed that the resulting debris was both terrestrial and extraterrestrial and were together interspersed in the desert. The large balloon array may have somehow enmeshed, entangled or impacted in a way that interrupted the operation of the craft. Or perhaps the craft had to suddenly avert course to prevent such a thing from occurring.

The Mogul - a secret balloon experiment to detect Soviet nuclear explosions - was proffered in the 1990s by the USAF as the explanation for the Roswell event. The Mogul was a massively long train of balloons and radar reflectors that went far into the atmosphere. Of course UFOs - though they are often mistaken for balloons - seem to themselves be attracted to balloons. The UFO may have shown interest in Mogul. Was ET "checking out" Man's latest aerial acrobatics? They certainly observed our V-2 rockets and our NASA space flights. In a similar way, were they taking a look at what was then our grandest high-altitude balloon? Did they hit or swerve because they got too close? Did "curiosity kill the cat"?

THE CRASH AS A CONFLUENCE OF EVENTS

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We can now see that it is distinctly possible that an ET craft can crash.

But no individual reason for the crash that has been outlined here can provide the complete explanation for why the craft crashed. Any singly-given explanation has its own particular drawbacks. But a convergence of circumstances and occurrences could account for the incident.

In fact, scientists and insurance risk researchers have long recognized that almost all deaths, injuries and damages result from a mix of individual events that come into simultaneous play. For instance, someone runs in socks on a slippery floor with scissors, falls and is injured. Someone collides with another car while going too fast and talking on the cell-phone. Forensic examiners and failure analysis experts often attribute accidents to multiple causes.

In the same way, Roswell's crash was caused by an amalgamation of things. The effects of experimental radar during a violent electric night storm on an unknown craft is itself unknown. Perhaps it was pilot error while averting a Mogul. The precise reasons remain illusive- though they are likely found as a blend of the possibilities offered in this article. But we can be sure of this: It was an extraordinary combination of events that led to the most extraordinary discovery in history.

50 Comments:

  • There is another possibility. The crew were over-excited on having reached planet earth after traversing light years of space, and got a bit 'high' on alcohol or drugs There was a flask shaped object discovered among the debris. Perhaps an empty champagne bottle? Mind you, we don't really know what they drink on Zeta Reticuli, do we?

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, August 01, 2010  

  • Now, now, Christopher:

    Don't be sarcastic.

    Mr. Bragalia has some interesting and good suggestions here.

    After all, something happened at Roswell -- something more than Ramey and Mogul (alone) explains.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, August 01, 2010  

  • Suicide mission . . . think about it. ;O)

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Sunday, August 01, 2010  

  • For years I speculated or should I say joked to myself that wouldn't it be funny if project mogul was involved, as in a saucer crashing into one. LOL

    Perhaps we should start putting up 'flying nets'?

    By Blogger BoyintheMachine, at Monday, August 02, 2010  

  • These are interesting theories, but there is a very plausible one that is not included: Perhaps this was no "accident." This may have been pre-arranged by mutual agreement between the ETs and the governments or individuals that they contracted with to share technology. What a perfect scenario for the gov't/military/comm industry to be able to deny complicity and say that they "just found" the stuff. That way, even if someone were to figure out that they go advanced technology, no one would begin to question what they agreed to trade for it . . . human DNA? Animal DNA? Minerals? All of the above?

    By Blogger Rossome, at Monday, August 02, 2010  

  • Dear Tony,
    I dealt with another theory in "Was Roswell a plant" I think it could have been done on purpose.
    What I covered in my blog was that Roswell may have been a plant by ETs.
    According to the ancient astronaut theory. ETs did help chosen societies in the past.
    We could have been a chosen
    power to help. This country reflected more examples of different cultures in the world then any other, and was in possession of the A Bomb.
    Another reason may have been a release of technology not that far in advance of what we have. This would be in and of itself disinformation. The bodies could have been deal ETs planted.
    If it was a crash why didn't they come for the ship or their fallen conrads?
    Thanks for a good article.
    Joe
    UFO Media Matters

    By Blogger Joseph Capp, at Monday, August 02, 2010  

  • Christopher is right on target.

    The idea of skipping over the messy fact that there is no hard evidence of a crash at all and pointlessly (and, I'm afraid, superficially) theorizing about the causes of same is sadly to be expected among saucer enthusiasts.

    Next up, I hope we can get precise figure for how many divine winged beings can reel and jig upon the head of a pin.

    It's exciting to see progress in the field!

    Lance

    By Blogger Lance, at Monday, August 02, 2010  

  • I agree with Joseph Capp. The Roswell and other so-called crashes
    have been deliberately orchestrated by the aliens to obtain a toe-hold with world governments and their citizens. The recovered dead bodies show us the extent the aliens are willing to go to get what they want. Aliens will be establishing permanent bases in the future of a public type, not the usual secretive type, as public
    acceptance permits it. They are here to offer humanity a choice between their way and earth's tradional spiritual ways. This temptation will be highly successful for certain kinds of individuals.

    By Anonymous Kenneth Heck, at Monday, August 02, 2010  

  • Thanks Joe...

    For the answer to why they did not pick up their fallen comrades, please see my article "Why ET Did Not Retrieve at Roswell." I should have provided a link to it in this article as the two questions are related.

    AJB

    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Monday, August 02, 2010  

  • Lance, Christopher, et al.

    Let’s try to agree that something bizarre happened near Roswell in 1947, something still not clear to many of us.

    If nothing significant happened, we all would have abandoned the Roswell “event” some time ago.

    But a mythos has developed, and Stanton Friedman, Tony Bragalia, among others are determined to find the basis for the mythos.

    Mythologies, as Jung and Joseph Campbell told us, are rooted in truth, often transcendental truth.

    Roswell doesn’t, for me, fall into the transcendental category, but Joseph Capp, and other ufological aficionados would see it otherwise.

    Tony Bragalia bolsters his ET preference for the Roswell incident with circumstantial materials that are hard-found and often unique.

    I like his clue-gathering.

    But Paul Kimball, Nick Redfern, you Lance and CDA, along with me and others, think it’s time to forget Roswell and move on to worthier UFO pursuits (in there are any).

    And you Lance, along with CDA keep the Roswell ball rolling by debating it ad infinitum at various blogs (ours and especially Kevin Randle’s).

    Roswell has become, for you guys, an obsessive bête noire; one that needs to be destroyed.

    (I won’t go into the psychology of that.)

    I just think that Roswell still needs to be played out, and Mr. Bragalia is doing just that.

    Is he wasting his time? Or yours? Or mine? I don’t think so. None of us is working to cure cancer, or trying to solve the world’s hunger.

    So let’s just enjoy the conjecturing, and see if it takes us anywhere worthwhile or interesting.

    What else have any of us to conjure with?

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, August 02, 2010  

  • Playing the devils advocate, lightning strikes have not caused a single U.S airline or military crash in over forty years despite thousands of flights occurring daily. Some strikes have gone through the skin of craft or caused some malfunctions but I think your theory in terms of this possibility has a very slim chance of being probable. As far as radar effecting a craft even so far back as 1945, the Reich developed a capability to deflect radar which is shared by UFO's in the notorious sense. Consider that cosmic rays, solar flares, microbursts, would have to be protected against when pursuing or navigating interstellar space that makes lightning a blip. Any foray into unique atmospheric conditions would be studied in advance of simply going in as a toss of the dice. Your theory seems improbable, and a bit of a stretch but a good try.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, August 02, 2010  

  • Let me say, and I don't think this is top secret. that I am a huge fan of Anthony Bragalia. I think his work is the most exciting being done in the field today.
    I also must say I am a fence sitter on Roswell. While it is THE cornerstone UFO case, regardless of what actually happened, UFOs were of concern to the US government all the way up to President Truman. That's not hype, it's a well documented fact. The importance of Roswell is that if it was alien, Truman knew, the government was sure. If it wasn't, then they were as mysteried by the enigma as we are but the phenomenon was still addressed in the White House.
    There's also no question a mythology has built up around the phenomenon.
    While Jung quickly recognized that flying saucers were becoming the modern day myth, it was the mythology he was interested in, not the question of alien visitation. I can assure you that after reading his autobiography "Memories, Dreams, Reflections" many years ago, Jung accepted that paranormal events do occur with the same matter of factness as we accept mail delivery. This was based on his own personal experience.
    As Campbell wrote in his classic The Hero With A Thousand Faces, "There are things in this world that aren't rightly understood by men."
    He was right about that.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Monday, August 02, 2010  

  • ... but why the infamous Black Sun design as the last illustration? Or is Anthony subliminally saying that the Roswell ufo was a secret Nazi weapon?:)

    regards,

    Theo

    By Blogger theo paijmans, at Tuesday, August 03, 2010  

  • To be serious, there was nothing "bizarre" about Roswell when it happened. It was explained within 24 hours and the public accepted it. It may have had a brief few hours of wonder but that was all.

    Roswell only became "bizarre" when Stan Friedman poked his nose into it in 1979. He and Bill Moore then built on this story until it became a book (with famous author Berlitz making it a high selling book) reviving the crashed saucer stories started by Scully 30 years before, but in a different location.

    Not one iota of physical evidence has ever been produced, as Lance says, yet the 'witnesses', 2nd and 3rd hand, go on and on with their dubious testimony, and will continue to do so as long as credulous investigators seek them out. Not one single official document about the supposed 'spaceship' or the supposed bodies, has turned up. Nor is there the slightest chance it ever will. Hence the forgeries, diaries and fake films, produced to titillate people that they are the real things.

    I am not going to repeat the anti-Roswell evidence ad nauseam, as people understandably get bored with it, just as skeptics get bored with the endless speculation over what 'might have' caused this or that, or who 'might' have been involved, or what the USAF supposedly 'knew' or what the CIA or FBI, or even the President, 'knew' and so on.

    Yes Roswell is a myth. Something happened. That 'something' was explained at the time (or very soon thereafter) and was forgotten about until revived 30 years later by two very pro-ET saucer researchers, with an eye on making money, using another, famous, author's name to this end. Have you ever once heard Berlitz make ANY statement about Roswell or ETs after the book appeared in 1980? If not, why not? Why was he so silent on the matter thereafter?

    What followed in the decades post-1980 is well known and well documented, so I shall say no more.

    Yes the case is still worth investigating for those who want to pursue it. But, in the end, all it amounts to is endless speculation & more speculation, coupled with the usual rhetorical questions.

    My rant is now over!

    By Blogger cda, at Tuesday, August 03, 2010  

  • A researcher named Ron Halbritter once posited that the Maury Island saucers, those witnessed by Kenneth Arnold and the one at Roswell were all the same saucers. The first involved the repair of a wobbling craft, then the Arnold eyewitness, and then the repaired vehicle finally crashing. Since Mr. Bragalia tossed his credibility on this issue down the tube with his Maury Island post, I doubt if that's something he'd even consider, even though Fred Crisman may have been involved with radar fogging devices that fit one of these scenarios. (The new edition of my Maury Island book comes out next spring by Feral House, btw.)

    By Blogger Kenn Thomas, at Tuesday, August 03, 2010  

  • CDA:

    I loath having to defend the Roswell scenario but Mr. Bragalia has unearthed a few things (such as the Battelle research on memory metal, allegedly coming from the Roswell debris) that invites further speculation and investigation.

    I agree that Friedman has made his “fame” on the Roswell story that he continues to stoke. And he, along with Randle and others, have muddied the waters with their self-serving hype of the incident.

    Also, while I’m no big fan of Joseph Capp’s endearing support of the so-called Roswell witnesses, I do understand that, statistically, Roswell can’t support so many liars and con-artists; e.g., research shows that the population of Roswell (1947 onward) would not be conducive to the amount of bogus accounts that Roswell investigators have dredged up.

    That is, if all the “witnesses” who’ve come forward are lying, that statistically anomaly would, itself, be intriguing to social scientists.

    But I almost agree with your subliminal, untouted stance that Roswell should be left for the dead thing that is was almost immediately after the July 1947 brouhaha.

    Unfortunately, Anthony Bragalia keeps finding things that seem to indicate that Roswell was more than what you, Lance, and other naysayers think it was.

    And so, for me, the debate remains open, even though there are other avenues of UFO research that would be better-served, as Paul Kimball and Nick Redfern propose.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, August 03, 2010  

  • Hi Theo-

    No hidden meaning in the symbol - I had no idea it was the Black Sun. I was looking for images to signify "convergence" and chose this one. Thanks for pointing it out.

    AJB

    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Tuesday, August 03, 2010  

  • I agree with Rossome. As far as publications note, the crashed saurser was occupied by 5 our 6 grey aliens. My sources say they where with 6. The grey always travel with 2, 4, 6 or 12. In the book the alien code, you can find in detail what the grey are, who build them and what they are doing here. In 1933, they became dangerous and independant from there makers. The greys where part of an advanced space industrial complex. They function in blockcultures of +- 6000 entity's. They are cloned artificial robots and if it fits there strategy they can sacrifice a few. But I don't think the crash was some kind of a deal with the military of the USA. It was more likely a carfully planned tactic, to force the military industrial complex to study there craft. They knew in advance wich parts could be back engeneered. You remember Philip Corso's book. Our computer and internet are the main things we have mastered. The grey knew that this would happening. They just had to wait untill the whole world becomes more and more dependent from the computer and internet and implants and what have you. They greys can penetrate these technology's in a highly advanced way. It is part of there strategy to take control of the whole digital machinery worldwide, once they decide the time has come to go in action. I hope our leaders take this possibility serious.

    By Blogger ramon, at Tuesday, August 03, 2010  

  • Cosmic Ray Gun Info circa 1947

    http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/12/17/cosmic-ray-gun/

    By Blogger Bob Koford, at Wednesday, August 04, 2010  

  • quote : "as the Battelle research on memory metal, allegedly coming from the Roswell debris) that invites further speculation and investigation."

    Greetings,

    Well, I find this "recent" new argument in the Roswell myth not really convincing for common sens persons without offense to Tony, or others ET Roswell proponents.

    The "recent" Battelle research element in the myth is simply a new piece to auto-aliment the Myth imho, in the pure tradition of the fabrication of the myth.

    1. As usual for example, we have the same narrative processing : the introduction of a third or fourth hand witness... The typical narrative loop in the myth again (and again).

    In short : This is done by Elroy Center, introduced by Irina Scott (a) who claims a witness (b) said to her in private (sic) that Mister Center told him (c) that he worked on materials his superiors (d) saids coming from ET crashed craft.

    It sounds a solid evidence for the myth... I find the weight of such "pieces" like the post traumatism of the witness ones, showing alcoolism, obesity, bad father, etc. for the "witnesses".

    As I said in another topic in Kevin's blog, in the absence of the solid evidences, there come the liquid ones... (sorry)

    2. Reading the Battelle document, we can see that the searchors are testing alloys with less 10 % of nickel and the rest of titanium.

    The problem is that NITINOL 1960 alloy needs 50/60% nickel in order to have "memory form" properties.

    So, if those searchors retro proceeded from ET material, they are testing curious alloys despite the formula was "given" and under their eyes and instruments...

    How do you explain such tests with 10 % of nickel ? Personnaly as a step by step experimentation in a balbutiant technology as any one in other domains, without "ET" intervention.

    If the "ET material" they were retro processing have had 10 % nickel, I imagine how memory form performer this alloy was ! Closed to zero...

    Memory form alloys have been discovered "step by step", by different tests and research as in any standard human research, using different sorts of alloys (not only nickel Titanium, but others too, more economic even if less performers than NITINOL in term of memory form).

    Battelle ET retro ingenery sounds really retro and funny, that's right !

    Sorry for my english :(

    Best Regards,

    Gilles F.

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Thursday, August 05, 2010  

  • More information is available in the book, "Alien Interview". A series of interviews were conducted with the surviving pilot of the craft by military personnel at the 509th Bomb Group at Roswell. The interview transcripts contained in the book substantiate some of your speculation, and add other information you are missing.

    There is also a website and blog about the interviews at www.alieninterview.org

    By Anonymous Editor, at Thursday, August 05, 2010  

  • Sorry Tony ?

    I never mentionned "payment" or insulted Irina Scott. Allow me please to rephrase

    "I" remarked that in Roswell myth, we have a vast collection of second, third or fourth hand testimonies.

    That's a fact, not an insult...

    This is the same, I regret, with Eloy Center introduction in the myth as a "direct" protagonist. Not, it is a indirect witness.

    Eloy Center is introduced in the myth following the same "Z heard from Y that X said to Y he was "studying" materials providing of an ET craft".

    And it comes a serious evidence in Roswell puzzle...

    Idem, in the Battelle document, there is tested alloys with 10 % nickel !

    NITINOL needs 50 to 60 % nickel to have memory form properties. I found then curious they are testing such quantity of nickel versus Titanium in the alloy if they have "correct" memory form materials coming from space they are retro ingeneering.

    Out mass spectrography (dunno the term in english), they existed in late 40's and after, several methods to judge CORRECTLY the quantity of different metals in an alloy... But Battelle searchors ignored those methods...

    An "ET" memory form alloy with 10 % nickel and titanium searchors are retro analysed is realy funny... No ?

    But in your article, you concluded something like (sorry, by memory) :

    "the true is now revealed, Battelle Memorial Institute have analysed materials from a crashed craft coming from another world".

    I believe it is a little fast to conclude like this with such very few elements.

    Aeronautic and USAF was interested by memory form alloy (mainly concerning properties against the hard temperature etc...). So, that's normal they commanded and made contracts with "privated" institutes like Battelle to obtain such alloys like in any standard researches, proceeding step by step.

    I found the document typical of experiments proceeding step by step. No need to invoke the extraterrestrials..

    But no, such studies were directly inspirated, possible and based cause Roswell wreckage... Well...

    I'm sorry Tony to not share such opinion concerning Batelle "smocking fun" or to see another indirect protagonist (Eloy Center) as it is typical in Roswell myth.

    and then that I find this Battelle chapter of the myth not really convincing...

    No goal to insult you or dunno what, just sharing my skeptic opinion ;) Sorry.

    Best Regards,

    Gilles F.

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Thursday, August 05, 2010  

  • Gilles F...

    I think Mr. Bragalia was replying to "anonymous" above, not you.

    But, as always, your views are precious.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, August 05, 2010  

  • Gilles:

    I was responding to "Anonymous" who had suggested such a thing on my article, "The General's Widow: A Roswell Tell All" Sorry you thought that was directed to you.

    Secondly, I am keenly aware of the "issues" that you percieve relative to the Roswell-Battelle-Nitinol connection. I am just not certain why you are bringing them up now in comments on this current article. That said, watch for a follow-up article in the future on Battelle. The work has continued on this in the intervening year, and the findings are astonishing...

    I will also directly answer in detail technical concerns that have been brought up by you and people like Printy, including the Ni to Ti ratio, the history of memory metals and aeronautical metals. For now I will tell you that you are absolutely incorrect: Work is going on right now on variation of the Nickel to Titanium ratio that deviates heavily from a 50/50 alloy- and that the addition of elements in micro-quantities seems to enhance the shape recovery characteristic.

    BTW, I never said Nitinol itself was the Roswell memory metal Gilles. If you were a careful reader you would know that I believe Nitinol represents our best attempts at replication. It is the material whose impetus is from Roswell, but not the identical material itself of course.

    AJB

    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Thursday, August 05, 2010  

  • Ah oki ! oups sorry !

    Just now at home with my documents and sources used in my recent french book about Roswell.

    In the table 1 of this link, you can find interresting things about memory form alloys :

    http://web.archive.org/web/20030605085042/http://www.sma-inc.com/SMAPaper.html

    I made a mistake cause my memories before.
    You need 49 to 51 % percents of nickel in NITINOL (and not 50 to 60 %, sorry).

    1. When the Battelle searchors use nickel-titanium in an alloy, they are testing 0 to 10 %.

    Why if they are retro-processing ?

    2. The document is mentionning several OTHER alloys which are tested and NOT ONE ONLY : binary titanium silver alloy, binary titanium berylium, binary titanium zirconium, etc...

    I mean it is typical of an "episode" of study you are testing different alloys.

    But no, such several alloys comes from a crashed spacecraft and Battelle is retro ingeneering [with fantasist proportions of nickel and titanium (for example)].

    For the anecdote too, the summary and conclusion mention :

    No alloys of interest were noted ! Ho, that's imputable and the best evidence of the good compartimentation and cover-up for a top secret experiment. Chut... ^^

    Battelle facing ET material with memory form properties is unabble to determine the well proportion of Ni Ti to have a memory shape alloy, and are testing several other alloys, coming from space too... Really ?

    Alloys presented and concluded to have no one interrest...

    @ Christopher :

    Roswell Case is for sure "bizarre" for skeptics too...

    But mainly when it is noted as "bizarre", things in what it is proposed as to being "bizarre". Hihi.

    Best Regards,

    Gilles F.

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Thursday, August 05, 2010  

  • Sorry Tony to have believed your comment was adressed to me.

    More "important" : When I posted my last reply, you posted too. I will follow with great interest your work in progress.

    Cause you wrote :

    "Work is going on right now on variation of the Nickel to Titanium ratio that deviates heavily from a 50/50 alloy- and that the addition of elements in micro-quantities seems to enhance the shape recovery characteristic. "

    ***

    I "well" know that the addition of micro quantity of an element in binary alloys increases such shape recovery properties of the alloy.

    That's the case in Cu-Zn alloys in which there are "injected" few proportions of Aluminium OR silicium OR tin ( the english word for sn element ?).

    But without offense, where are the extraterrestrials ?

    What is the link with Batelle document you "exhumed" (BINARY alloys) ?

    Suspens... ^^

    You wrote too about NITINOL :

    "It is the material whose impetus is from Roswell, but not the identical material itself of course."

    Without offense : yes, of course... That's so limpid.Like a spring water but... I'm blind ;)

    More seriously, TY and I wait as usual your work. Not to hyper critic matter or dunno what, just because the level of proof, evidence between "you" and "me" is... different.

    Best Regards,

    Gilles F.

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Thursday, August 05, 2010  

  • Gilles:

    Again, I do not wish to at this time get into an extended dialog as a forthcoming article will address your concerns.

    But you are correct - the Battelle First Progres Report suggested that work be discontinued on the costly and difficult Ti alloys as there were insufficient results But Wright insisted that it be continued for some reason, and contract for Progress Report II as well as a future series such studies. I beleive that Wright's own Materials Lab was calling the shots and was hell-bent on focusing in on - and funding - these novel Ti alloys such as the memory metals NiTi and TiZr.

    And if fact you are right - they alloyed Ti with Ni- but also with metals like Zr (Zirconium) - which Wright several years later secretly contract to be examined for that alloy's potential in shape recovery!

    What you fail to understand: These novel Ti alloy studies were in the time period immediately following the crash and were conducted by an individual who later confessed to ET debris analysis! And Wright's own General Exon directly said on tape that some of the debris was made of "specially processed Titanium and another metal, they performed all kinds of alloy, chemical and compression test and the reports are still around."

    Why all the frenzy in the late 40s to secrety contract w/ a trusted contractor Battelle and have them perform first-ever experimentation in melting, metals purification, phase diagramming and testing (including enlongation/bendability tests) of novel Ti alloys (all of the activities required to form memory metal.

    AJB

    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Thursday, August 05, 2010  

  • Tony,

    If I replied "OFF topic" for you, but "IN" for me legitimaly ; it is because the 16th or 15th reply (tired to count with exact measures, - like allegued Battelle searchers ^^ -). Oups.

    The quote is, if I can help :

    "I loath having to defend the Roswell scenario but Mr. Bragalia has unearthed a few things (such as the Battelle research on memory metal, allegedly coming from the Roswell debris) that invites further speculation and investigation."
    End of the quote

    This is the "cause" of my reply.

    Then not a "sudain" intervention , totaly "out" what was discussed or mentionned IN this great topic or must be OUT.

    ****

    You wrote :

    What you FAIL TO UNDERSTAND : These novel Ti alloy studies were in the time period immediately following the crash and were conducted by an individual who later confessed to ET debris analysis!

    End of Quote.

    Oki, I fail to understand. I'm sure you will help me for such an EVIDENT fail to understand your claim...

    Well, what is your "STALION" (Landmark in english ?) to claim here an IMMEDIATELY period time.

    I quote you :

    These novel Ti alloy studies were in the time period IMMEDIATLY FOLLOWING THE CRASH and were conducted by an individual who later confessed to ET debris analysis!

    For your knowledge (?) memory shape properties of some alloys have been detected in... 1935.

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Thursday, August 05, 2010  

  • There is a huge leap here with the metals research, I don't think there's much question about it. They were still using wooden airplanes to great effect during WWII.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Thursday, August 05, 2010  

  • Tony :

    Last thing before an "in" topic about this chapter concerning Battelle :

    You wrote "What you fail to understand: These novel Ti alloy studies were in the time period immediately following the crash."

    To my friends and students, I propose often a little "skeptic" game.

    Choose a date in the 20th century and imaging an ET crash with wreckage recovered, used for retro ingenering purpose, compartimentation and all the conspirationnist panoply.

    Open (sorry in French) :
    http://a.bouque.free.fr/invent/index2.htm

    Take your pencil and maybe you will write a best seller ;)

    Concerning you future article, I'm a little aware of such alloys using little quantity of a "third" metal to improve memory form properties. I know those research was "secret" taking into account the interrest of such alloys for aeronautic. And ?

    In other words, I wait how you will show us the link with Roswell...

    Or you are playing the same "game" like the one proposed before without offense.

    Best Regards,

    Gilles F.

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Friday, August 06, 2010  

  • Gilles:
    What AJB means is that any research on metals, particle physics, transistors, fiber optics or other subjects related to either advanced aircraft or our own early spacecraft that was done in the period July '47 to late '49 was very likely linked to the materials recovered from the Roswell crashed UFO. The papers are all 'top secret' (naturally).

    The conclusion is pretty obvious to many on this blog, though some people, such as you and me, may have our doubts.

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, August 06, 2010  

  • CDA-

    Don't put words in my mouth. I do not believe that all those technologies you mention come from Roswell. I hope you meant it as a joke, though it is not funny. I challenge you to find a time when I have ever inferred or said
    such a thing.

    I am not "Corso-esque" and do not believe that Corso was telling the truth.

    I do believe in the amazing abilities of humans to accomplish great technical feats and they do not require "ET help."

    You are painting me with a broad brush and I don't like it. The fact is that it is far more likely that any kind of retroengineering began -not with the craft itself - but with its materials of construction.

    AJB

    By Anonymous Anthony Bragalia, at Friday, August 06, 2010  

  • "In other words, I wait how you will show us the link with Roswell... "

    The link between Wright-Patterson AFB and UFOs is part of the historical record. It was where the Air Technical Intelligence Center was headquartered. ATIC, among other things, oversaw Projects Sign, Grudge and then Blue Book.

    Wright-Pat had been the destination point for captured foreign aircraft dating back to WWII.

    "In the fall of 1942, the first twelve "Air Force" officers to receive ATI field collection training were assigned to Wright Field for training in the technical aspects of "crash" intelligence."

    http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/histechintel.htm

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Friday, August 06, 2010  

  • Greetings CDA,

    Yep...Snif... ^^

    In documents you can easaly purchase by net, you can learn that the first recorded observation of the shape memory transformation was done in 1932 (Chang&Read). It was noted the reversibility of the transformation in AuCd by metallographic observations and resistivity changes. In 1938, the transformation was seen in brass (CuZn) too.

    One of the two "famous" names concerning Shape Memory Alloys reasearchers are then L.C. Chang and T.A. Read. And they worked publicaly.

    We can see that their works were published in reviews without any "top secret" censure : They have published several works on the martensitic transformation that occurs in the shape memory alloys yields.

    // I add that a discovery of metallic phase transformations can be traced too in 1932, in the work of Ölander in Au-Cd too, published and public in A Olander, in J. Amer. Chem. Soc. 54. (1932) 3819.

    So, it was not really new in "1947".

    Probably such alloys and properties have less interest in the 30s they will in the 50's.

    Cause it comes the Aeronautical "Jet" era, and any common sens person can understand why Memory alloys researches made a "boom" in public works (Chang and Read works ie) and of course in "military" ones.

    So, the Memory Form alloys researches were absolutly not all TOP SECRET after 1947 and such alloys were ALREADY knew in the 30's.

    I dont really see the link with Roswell and Memory alloys. Probably me.

    Best Regards,

    Gilles F.

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Friday, August 06, 2010  

  • "In 1938, the transformation was seen in brass (CuZn) too."

    You're only helping to make Anthony's argument by mentioning the earlier brass alloys. Nitinol was a significant advancement as it included titanium, which has the highest strength-to-weight ratio of any metal.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Friday, August 06, 2010  

  • Nickel Titanium alloy comes then from Roswell wreckage ! QED.

    Tsss... No.

    NiTi comes from William Buehler Metallurgist.

    Assigned by the Naval Ordnance Laboratory in Maryland to find a nonmagnetic and noncorroding material for tools that could be safely used in dismantling magnetic mines, he finally hit upon 55-Nitinol, a nickel-titanium alloy.

    During further experiments, however, he discovered that the alloy also had a strange and mysterious quality in the realm of science fiction: It had a "memory."

    Where is Roswell ? Hoo : Cover-up !

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Friday, August 06, 2010  

  • Part 2 (internet problem or my finger), dunno (or ET ?^^). Sorry.

    During laboratory tests in early 60's, Buehler and Physicist Frederick Wang reported in Ocean Engineering, they fashioned Nitinol into a complex shape at a high temperature, then cooled it and crushed it beyond recognition.

    When they heated the alloy again, it magically regained its original shape, "remembering" every curve and angle.

    That's the true history of NITINOL.

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Friday, August 06, 2010  

  • "That's the true history of NITINOL."

    That's the over-simplified story you believe.

    "I found within the U.S. Naval Ordnance Laboratory an ongoing materials project which had the goal of developing metallic materials for the nose cone of the U.S. Navy Polaris reentry vehicle. The in-house project was under the direction of Mr. Jerry Persh, an aerodynamicist. I was able to attach myself to this project, and my initial task was to provide physical and mechanical property data on existing metals and alloys for computer-assisted boundary layer calculations. These calculations were to simulate the heating, etc. of a reentry body through the earth’s atmosphere. My informational role in this project very quickly became somewhat boring, and I almost immediately began to think in terms of possibly tailoring newly developed alloys that might better satisfy the drastic thermal requirements of the reentry body."

    -William J. Buehler

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:anaquBO97CUJ:cshare.psu.edu/GREATT/Instructional%2520materials/MemoryMetals.doc+%22William+Buehler%22+nitinol&cd=112&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

    Hmmm . . . ongoing study . . . re-entry vehicle.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Friday, August 06, 2010  

  • I know a Martensite study cited in your last link dated... 1941

    http://www.onemine.org/search/summary.cfm/Papers--Mechanism-of-Martensite-Formation-Summary-T-P-1338?d=AE9DEAA225EF38ACC7D938A5E514DF13AF54E63ED556A7239721A7B29AAD878B18442&fullText=martensite


    Where is Roswell ?

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Friday, August 06, 2010  

  • Another in 1944 :

    http://www.onemine.org/search/summary.cfm/Papers--Hardenability--Effect-of-Some-Elements-on-Hardenability-Metals-Technology-January-1944-With-discussion?d=79FAC35FA7EA8CC76211602870EFAB4C9CF8489FD0AB9F7B5A1E06C88650851518836&fullText=martensite&start=50

    Another one starting in 1946 copyrighted in january 1947.

    http://www.onemine.org/search/summary.cfm/Papers--Hardenability--Effect-of-Some-Elements-on-Hardenability-Metals-Technology-January-1944-With-discussion?d=79FAC35FA7EA8CC76211602870EFAB4C9CF8489FD0AB9F7B5A1E06C88650851518836&fullText=martensite&start=50

    One in 1934 !

    http://www.onemine.org/search/summary.cfm/Papers--Observing-Formation-of-Martensite-in-Certain-Alloy-Steels-at-Low-Temperatures-With-Discussion?d=EAFBEF17C14128AF789E8C3390795BBF741C099E9529F8356904EFB383BC9ABB17370&fullText=martensite&start=90

    1946

    http://www.onemine.org/search/summary.cfm/Contents-of-Volume-167-Iron-and-Steel-Division-1946?d=2BEE6653243BD94E2671C2A28DD0FDE84AFEA1140CF90D71E67DFC5DB5972C0019576&fullText=martensite&start=120

    Etc.

    All public and without "TOP SECRET" or providing from FOIA.

    There are many others in 1947 or before. It exists one from 1902 too (yes..).

    Many symposium processings too.

    Just one :

    Symposia - Symposium on Hardenability - Hardenability and Quench Cracking (Metals Tech., Jan. 1946, T. P. 1927 with discussion).

    ***

    One more time, where is the link between Roswell and such studies ?

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Friday, August 06, 2010  

  • "Many symposium processings too."

    And if they had symposiums on the subject during the Bronze Age, making better alloys would have been on the agenda. What is your point?

    I've been able to demonstrate that the original story of the discovery of nitinol was not to "find a nonmagnetic and noncorroding material for tools that could be safely used in dismantling magnetic mines."

    At the very least, it was a cover story for work on Polaris MRVs, which one would expect to remain classified for many years. Those many years have obviously passed. That you accepted it at face value is unfortunate.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Friday, August 06, 2010  

  • To Frank Stalter & Tony Bragalia:

    Gilles' point is obvious. It is that there is no connection whatever between the discovery of Nitinol and the materials from the Roswell crashed UFO. Just like there is none between the discovery of transistors and the Roswell material (a la Friedman). But those wanting to find such a link can always invoke coincident dates, perhaps the odd name, and perhaps even a very vague document reference to some other research paper which can be interpreted by Roswell zealots as a 'connection'.

    I'll repeat Gilles' question:
    Where are the real metallurgy research documents, from Battelle or anywhere else, establishing the 'Roswell connection'?

    By Blogger cda, at Saturday, August 07, 2010  

  • Franck,

    You are "right" for Nitinol and I was "wrong". TY to have corrected me.

    I found too a document writted by Buelher himself available in pdf :

    http://www.wolaa.org/files/Nitinol_Oral_History.pdf

    My point is that the game will consist to show secret documents after 1947 about memory alloys studies and to say it is Roswell linked. Without evidences.

    The link between metallurgy research documents and Roswell will remain a believing to auto-aliment Roswell myth.

    There exist memory alloys works after 1947 which are public // to Battelle second report, for example

    Institute of Metals Division - The Structure of Intermediate Phases in Alloys of Titanium with Iron, Cobalt and Nickel
    Author Duwez, P. ; Taylor, J. L. 1951

    As there exist works prior 1947 about such alloys.

    That's all. Any link with Roswell and memory alloys, included niti will remain without solid evidence, just "I want to believe" syndromatic.

    Cordialy,

    Gilles F.

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Saturday, August 07, 2010  

  • "I'll repeat Gilles' question:
    Where are the real metallurgy research documents, from Battelle or anywhere else, establishing the 'Roswell connection'? "

    If you are expecting a research document titled "Analysis of the alien metal we found in Roswell" to convince you, I think you're going to remain unconvinced.

    The evidence here is, of course, largely circumstantial, the case not proved. It is, however, highly curious and highly compelling and merits a continued look.

    Certainly Battelle got a look at what came out of the NOL. See Page 3:

    http://www.wolaa.org/files/Nitinol_Oral_History.pdf

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Saturday, August 07, 2010  

  • "That's all. Any link with Roswell and memory alloys, included niti will remain without solid evidence, just "I want to believe" syndromatic."

    Yet there are still compelling facts about this metallic trail that demand attention.

    With all the talk of nitinol, the history of titanium itself has gone without mention. Today it is ubiquitous, but in 1947, it was only a laboratory curiosity. Titanium was never commercially produced until late 1948 . . . . by Manhattan Project contractor DuPont.

    The entire titanium industry was developed around US military demand for titanium for advanced aircraft.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Saturday, August 07, 2010  

  • Franck,

    By 1948, the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission became interested in using really new possibility to extract zirconium for structural elements of reactors. (BTW "invention" from the same who invented the industrial extraction of Titanium in 1938 in Luxembourg I think and who migrated to USA cause Nazy).

    Zirconium have had then and too military applications for jet motors, radar ; in public industry for surgical domains, fiber optics, etc,

    As Zirconium is one the most important metal allowing the construction of the first atomic submarine reactor.

    Zirconium, as titanium, made an industrial and military "BOOM" just after Roswell incident.

    Any connexion with Roswell ?

    I mean that after the war, there are probably many stories of technological boom, first real intensive productions of alloys or metal (like titanium or zirconium) in the Era of Jet or other domains.

    That's standard and common.

    But if Wright field (Pat), ATIC, Battelle or other "landmarks" proper to Roswell myth are evokated in the the (common) process, it is really strange and a connexion with Roswell cant be avoided...

    Investigations are made to establish the link, nothing is found (I mean a solide evidence) : just anecdotical things or legacies (second hand, third hand etc.).

    And there comes the different pro Roswell ETH jokers : compartimentation, need to know, dont expect to find a document with ET or Roswell mentions in our Study, etc.

    My goal is not for hyper-criticism, I enjoy to read all such investigations.

    But well, as Pflock having investigated to find again the flying saucer of his youngness, maybe a day some must accept the very dissonant and disappointing reality, as he wrote in Fortean Times n°114.

    UFO's ? Yes. Crashed Saucers ? Sigh...

    Regards,

    Gilles F.

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Sunday, August 08, 2010  

  • "Zirconium, as titanium, made an industrial and military "BOOM" just after Roswell incident.

    Any connexion with Roswell ?"

    Maybe. It is a worthy question.

    Let's look at titanium production:

    1945-a few pounds
    1947-two tons
    1951-500 tons
    1954-5000 tons
    1956-35000 tons (projected)

    "The exponential
    growth of metallic titanium production is unparalleled
    in the history of metallurgy."

    http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ed032p439

    It is as if someone in government said, after decades of wood and then steel aircraft manufacture, it's titanium! The metal had been known more than a century, a process for it's extraction from the ore since the '30s. The question becomes why? I'm not saying Roswell IS the reason, yet the timeline is compelling.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Sunday, August 08, 2010  

  • Frank, Gilles, CDA, et al...

    I suggest you look at Mr. Bragalia's latest posting about this matter (above) and carry on your "debate" accordingly.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, August 08, 2010  

  • Always remember that the Army reported that they had captured a flying disk. The locals didn't just somehow make it up. I am quite sure that the press release was ok'd by all of their superiors. Crash test dummies were not used until the 50's and mylar wasn't invented until the fifties as well.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Thursday, September 30, 2010  

  • It must have been all that Plutonian Nyborg....

    By Blogger J.Griffin, at Tuesday, April 02, 2013  

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