The UFO Iconoclast(s)

Saturday, April 09, 2011

J. EDGAR HOOVER’S SAUCER CRASH SECRETS by Anthony Bragalia

Copyright 2011, InterAmerica, Inc. [Reproduction of this material, outside of Fair Use or a link, will meet with legal action]

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It is said that FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover could find out “anything about everything.” His deep and unrelenting investigation of the secret activities of politicians, military, celebrities and foreign leaders is legendary. When determined to do so, he could learn the facts about any event or subject of interest. His compulsion to find out about such hidden things was insatiable and often even bordered on the perverse. But did Hoover’s interest in “things concealed” extend to ET? Did Hoover indeed discover the truth about the retrieval of crashed craft from another world? New information -and a fresh examination of a body of relevant FBI documents from decades ago - says “Yes.” And the buried clues that others have missed about the Director and his investigation of crashed saucers are now uncovered here:

THE TELLING DOCUMENTS

Four FBI documents in particular are key to understanding J. Edgar Hoover and the crashed saucer mystery. Some of these documents may be familiar to UFO enthusiasts. The FBI has now initiated Vault - an online searchable document retrieval for researchers and media. This has led to recent online discussion about of one of these documents.

However a closer and comprehensive look at these FBI documents reveals details that are not readily apparent on first review. When we analyze the FBI agents and military officials that are mentioned within these documents -as well as the documents’ timing and sequence and their overall context- we are led to one stunning conclusion: The Director knew that he was not being told the whole story behind the tales of crashed saucers. Fiercely independent, Hoover find out the truth about what really happened in the New Mexico desert on his own terms.

THE ROSWELL TELEX - JULY 8, 1947

On July 8, 1947 a FBI Special Agent named Percy Wily authored a convoluted teletype marked “Urgent. ” It was directed to J. Edgar Hoover and to the SAC (Special Agent in Charge) in Cincinnati. It is the only document from the week of the crash occurrence that has ever been released through FOIA that relates directly to the Roswell incident.

In summary, Hoover is informed that the “disc and balloon” were “being transported by special plane for examination” to Wright Field. Wyly is strange in his wording (with information related to him by the Army Air Force) and continues that it was reported to have resembled “a high altitude weather balloon with a radar reflector – but that “telephonic conversation had not borne out that belief.” Very curiously, this last line is omitted entirely from the 1990s Air Force Roswell Report debunking the event.

Agent Wyly was conveying information that had been provided to him by Major Edwin M. Kirton of the Army Air Force Intelligence (of the 8th Army Air Force) at Ft. Worth, TX. Kirton was one of General Roger Ramey’s key officers. Publicly Kirton debunked the incident, telling the Dallas Morning News that the Roswell crash was of a weather balloon (while telling Wyly that it was not.) Kirton lied to the press that the flight was cancelled to Wright Field (it was not.) Kirton’s name (misspelled “Curtan” in the original teletype) was purposely deleted from the original 1976 FOIA released document thus effectively preventing his questioning by researchers. Kirton passed in 1992 at age 83.

When Wyly was reached by a researcher in 1981, Wyly did not wish to speak about the Telex that was sent to Hoover. He said, “I’ve had no unexplained fires in my garage and I have had no men in dark suits at my doorstep. I’m enjoying my retirement and I was to keep it that way. I have nothing to say”. Wyly was loyal to Hoover even in the winter of his life. Wyly had been well rewarded for his years of silent service to the Hoover. After his FBI service I have learned, Percy Wyly was appointed Director of Security for Sandia Laboratories. Wyly died in 2000 at age 90.

There is much more to the intriguing “Wyly story” which this author has recently discovered which will be released at a later date.

What is also very interesting about this FBI teletype is that is indicates that the results of the study of the Roswell crash debris would be forwarded to the FBI’s Cincinatti office – and of course to Director Hoover. But incredibly, no documents have ever surfaced to indicate that this had ever happened. I am certain that when Hoover was apprised of the Roswell crash with such sparse but tantalizing information as provided by his agent Percy Wyly, that it had instigated Hoover’s strong interest and his intense investigation. It is inconceivable that Hoover was not informed- or that he did not try to find out on his own- the true nature of the crashed disc at Roswell.

There is simply no doubt whatsoever that additional documents exist about this - and that the US Government is deliberately hiding them- or that Hoover himself had private papers that related to his investigation of the matter. Why would the teletype state unequivocally that the results of the crash analysis would be sent to the FBI- but that no documents have been located to show that such Roswell results were indeed sent to Hoover?

This author is initiating a FOIA to have these promised crash analysis results to Hoover released to the public. Hoover was told that he would get them and we should be able to find out if he did.

A REQUEST FROM THE PENTAGON - JULY 10, 1947

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Just mere days after the UFO crash reported at Roswell, the Pentagon was requesting the assistance of Hoover’s office in helping solve the crashed saucer mystery. FBI Agent D.M. Ladd indicated to Hoover that on July 9, 1947 Brigadier General George Schulgen of Pentagon Intelligence personally discussed with a Special Agent of the FBI (name deleted under FOIA) the possibility of assistance from the FBI in investigating the flying disc phenomena.

Ladd indicates to Hoover that he did not believe that the Bureau should offer such assistance because the majority of “alleged discs reported found have been pranks.” This document can be viewed in entirety in reproduction here:

July 10, 1947 txt

Clyde Tolson, Associate Director of the FBI, received Ladd’s Memo, read and considered it, and annotated on it his disagreement with Ladd, saying: “I think we should do this” - meaning of course that he believes that the Bureau should consider investigating with the Pentagon.

Hoover qualifies his agreement with Tolson, but cautions him in a handwritten notation:

“I would do it but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full access to discs recovered. For instance, in the LA (Sw) case, the Army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination.” The second page of this document can be viewed in its original form here and includes Hoover’s handwritten notes:

HOOVER-UFO paper

Bear in mind that just a few days prior, Hoover had been promised by the military the results of analysis of the Roswell UFO crash debris, according to the Roswell Telex detailed above. Ladd likely did not know this. And Hoover was awaiting those results.

Some maintain that the “LA” in the Memo stands for “Louisiana” and that is refers to a UFO hoax that had taken place there. However, it is entirely unclear that is the intended meaning of Hoover’s abbreviation. It could just as easily be interpreted as “Sw” for Southwest (as in NM) or as “LA” for “Los Alamos” (in NM and where some craft parts could conceivably been taken) or even “Los Angeles” (which is where author Frank Scully, discussed later, lived.) Hoover’s writing is simply -and unfortunately- unclear on this. What is known is that the modern two-letter abbreviated codes for the states within the US were originated by the US Post Office in 1963, over 15 years after the date of this document. If the USG did not officially use ‘La’ or ‘La.’ to signify Louisiana, would Hoover?

And the Shreveport, LA hoax occurring on July 7 that some feel Hoover was referring to in the Memo was merely of a 16” aluminum plate. And contrary to what skeptics maintain, documents show that indeed an FBI agent was informed of this Shreveport incident and that this was promptly relayed to the New Orleans FBI office. I am certain that Hoover did not want “full access” to a 16” pie plate! And Hoover certainly knew. based on the Telex from his agent Percy Wyly. that such disc crashes were hardly all pranks! The other issue is that Hoover was historically very precise when referring to locations. He would have more likely said “in the Shreveport case” rather than the “Louisiana” case.

Tolson and Hoover no doubt continued their dialog privately on the crashed saucer matter: Should they pursue this investigation on their own- or should they cooperate with the Pentagon? As we learn in the next section, the two ultimately decided to not move forward in working with the military on the matter. Rather, they would trust no one but themselves and their own on this.

But perhaps the most intriguing part about this document is the individual that had requested Hoover’s assistance on crashed saucer investigation- Brigadier General Schulgen.

Schulgen had drafted a Secret Memo directed to some of his key officers on October 28, 1947 – just three months after the Roswell crash and after he had reached out to Hoover. This Memo included a section about flying discs entitled “Items of Construction.” In the Memo, Schulgen instructs his officers to be aware of flying objects and their material composition. He specifically notes the “unusual fabrication methods used to achieve extreme light weight” and that the material is of “a composite construction using various combinations of metals.” The obvious elephant in the room is that one could only determine such intermetallic construction by observing a crashed one! And the description of such material sounds distinctly Roswellian! That Schulgen was the key military contact making the inquiry of assistance to Hoover is extraordinary in light of this. You can view the Schulgen Memo here

Schulgen pdf

I assure you that Schulgen, who wanted Hoover’s assistance back in July, was not referring to such things as aluminum pie plates found in Shreveport!

HOOVER SAYS ”NO” TO THE PENTAGON - SEPTEMBER 27, 1947

On September 27 1947 Hoover wrote to the Pentagon a somewhat contemptuous letter informing them that he was discontinuing any FBI agent investigation of crashed discs. He characterized such crashes as those of “ash cans, toilet seats and what not.” He would defer any such investigations of that type to the Air Force. His attitude in his rebuking reply to the military is almost smarmy. It is as if he knew that they were trying to “play” him and that they have not given him “full access.”

You can view this document here.

September 27, 1947 letter

And of course this is not Hoover’s true sentiment about the matter whatsoever. Hoover simply did not trust the military and did not wish to work with them. He knew that he had not been given the “real deal” on the crash at Roswell. His agent Percy Wyly relayed that Hoover would be getting the crash debris results. But there appears to be a disconnect on this:

Was Hoover informed that it was the crash of Project Mogul (as the Air Force now maintains)? If so, why would Hoover characterize such crashes as those of “ash cans and what not” in his letter back to the Pentagon? If Hoover was told that Roswell was resultant from Mogul, why would he not want to join in on the recovery of other such devices tested on US soil and intended to be used against the Communists that he so hated?

Or had Hoover never received anything back from the Air Force? Was he left to rely only on press reports of the crash and on his agent Wyly’s precious few bits of information that were obtained from Ramey’s lackey, Major Kirton? If this was so, you can be certain that Hoover would have pulled in his most trusted agents to find out the truth about the UFO crash at Roswell.

It would not be at all like Hoover to simply acquiesce to media and military about the most momentous event in history- a crashed flying saucer! Hoover no doubt had believed that such investigation was within his prerogative. His mission was to investigate intrusions and transgressions that crossed states- and that’s certainly what a crashed saucer would have done. Hoover often viewed other departments of intelligence and military as places which he should investigate- not places with which he would cooperate.

As we will see in the following section, Hoover did in fact maintain interest in such crashed disc matters despite what he told the Pentagon. And his closest agents were informing him on crashed saucer stories three years later!

HOOVER INFORMED OF CRASHED DISCS - MARCH 22, 1950

An FBI Memo dated March 22, 1950 as been the subject of much recent online debate. In it, FBI Agent Guy Hottel explains to Hoover that “an Air Force investigator” source had informed him that three flying discs had prior been recovered in New Mexico. The source indicates that this may have been due to the effect of radar on the craft. Each disc had three occupants that were three feet tall. Seeking the Director’s guidance, Hottel indicates that he had not taken any further action on the matter.

Despite the recent flurry of discussion about this document (due to its recent inclusion on the FBI Vault repository) the fact is that this document was released in 1977 under FOIA. The organization CUFON (Computer UFO Network) was the first to publicly circulate the document in an online posting over their rudimentary network in 1986. You can view the original document here:

MARCH 22, 1950

Today it appears that many dismiss the document because they believe that it clearly refers to Frank Scully’s Aztec saucer crash hoax story, also related in 1950. But of course Scully’s book was published in September of 1950 and the Memo is dated in March, a half-year prior. So those who dismiss the Memo say that the story that Agent Hottel related to Hoover can be traced to a lecture on crashed saucers that was given by Aztec hoax perpetrator and Scully confidant Silas Newton at a Denver school early that year. A small Kansas City newspaper had recounted some of the details of the lecture as well.

But looking more closely at the details of the two accounts we see significant differences between the FBI Guy Hottel Memo and the Scully Aztec story. These differences are very fundamental and they are difficult to reconcile as referring to the same event:

- In Scully’s story, the size of the crashed discs are reported specifically as 99.9 feet, 72 feet and 36 feet in diameter. In the FBI Memo, the discs are instead reported as being “about 50 feet in diameter.”

- In Scully’s story, there were 34 men that were found in the discs. In the FBI Memo, there were only 9 beings found (three within each craft)

- In Scully’s story, the crash victims were dressed in a style that was reminiscent of the “style of the 1890s.” In the FBI Memo, the occupants were wearing tight flight suits.

- In Scully’s story, the crash victims are referred to as “men.” In the FBI Memo the crash victims are referred to only as being “of human shape.”

So it is evident that the size of the discs do not remotely match, the number of crash victims reported differs by over three and a half times, and the description of their appearance is markedly different.

In an October 13, 1947 teletype to his Special Agent in Charge in Los Angeles, Hoover directs him: “You are instructed to discreetly determine through appropriate sources of your office whether Frank Scully…is identical to the same Frank Scully who has been actively involved in communist activities since the late 1930s.” This document shows that Hoover knew who Scully was well before the Aztec crash story. He already had his eyes on Scully - and Hoover would not have confused his hoax story with other such accounts as the one related by his agent Hottel. And Hoover knew that Roswell had nothing to do with Aztec. One really happened…one did not.

The timing of this communication is interesting too. It was sent to the FBI’s LA office just a month after the publication of Scully’s Behind the Flying Saucers. Why did Hoover feel so threatened by his hoax story that he would want to nail Scully a Communist again? Mrs. Frank Scully related in letters to former researcher William Steinman that her husband was later harassed by FBI agents after the book’s publication. And if Hoover knew about the Scully hoax story way back in March, why did he wait until October to inquire about him and his Communist affiliations?

And what is of special interest is this:

Remember that Hoover had told the military back in September of 1947 that he did not want to participate with the Pentagon in investigating such crash cases. But here we are three years on and we see that Hoover is receiving details on just such events! Hoover had lied to the Pentagon. Though he had told the Pentagon that he wanted no part of it- what Hoover had really meant was that he did not want any part of working with the military on such UFO crash matters. He did not trust them. He wanted to work only with people that he could trust on this, his own people. Perhaps after Roswell he did not believe the results of the crash analysis that the military had provided to him. Or maybe he never did receive the crash analysis results from Wright that were promised to him in the July 8, 1947 Telex.

Who could Hoover trust on such investigation? He could trust his long-time friends and co-workers Special Agent Guy Hottel and FBI Associate Director Clyde Tolson:

Tolson (who had agreed with Hoover that they should investigate crashed discs) was Hoover’s #2 for decades and the person with whom he shared living quarters.

Guy Hottel (the author of the controversial 1950 crashed disc Memo) was one of Hoover’s favored agents and acted as Hoover’s personal bodyguard. Hoover had entrusted Guy to do some of the most discreet investigations the agency had ever conducted. This is because of the fact that as early as the 1930s the three of them -Hottel, Hoover and Tolson - would do things like go to Miami and stay together at hotels to gamble and socialize. Tolson and Hottel had even roomed together in the 1920s at college.

It is telling that Hottel and Tolson are linked to private discussion of crashed discs with Hoover- and that they are linked to other of Hoover’s most private interests. This ‘trio of trust’ could both keep secrets as well as find them out:

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HOOVER’S SECRET INVESTIGATIONS OF CRASHED SAUCERS

Hoover was characterized by many as relentless in his pursuit, fiercely patriotic and a highly secretive and suspicious individual. Taking into his confidence two of his most trusted agents, Hoover most certainly confided to them his concerns that the crash of a strange craft at New Mexico was of vital importance. He explained to them that he did not believe that the military had told him the truth about the event. Hoover no doubt dug deep on the matter and covered his tracks well as he did. But the trails of evidence left lead us closer to an understanding of J. Edgar Hoover’s crashed saucer secrets.

N.B: Here is a link to the original “Roswell Telex” from agent Wyly to Cincinnati SAC and to Hoover:

TELEX

46 Comments:

  • I admire your determination in the face of more than considerable odds to determine what occurred. The narrative time line only reinforces my deep suspicion the this instance was a Cold War hoax. Hoover wisely felt never say never, but his deep suspicions of AF manipulation to cull his unwitting collusion, while not being told the deep background or the nature of the "evidence", made him suspicious of the other party pulling the strings, the CIA. Time will tell. Great effort.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Saturday, April 09, 2011  

  • "(J. Edgar Hoover) - I would do it but before agreeing to it
    we must insist upon full access to discs recovered. For
    instance in the [Sw or La] case the Army grabbed it and would
    not let us have it for cursory examination. "

    Los Angeles perhaps? There always has been talk something was brought down during "The Battle Of LA."

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • Evenin' All,

    The "Hottel FBI doc" was precipitated by the AFOSI's investigation into the Aztec Incident's proponents (pre Scully) i.e., Koehler, Fick, Murphy, Van Horn, Davies etc. "Koehler" is the name that is redacted on the doc (as the informant).

    Quite simply, the FBI was tasked to help find one Leo GeBauer (pronounced Gay-bower).

    The doc–standing alone, and for those that aren’t familiar with the case and or the OSI investigation–it simply gives an impression which can be taken out of context (as is the case here) to what was taking place and what (originally) precipitated the FBI doc (and their involvement)to begin with.

    Cheers,
    Frank

    By Blogger Frank Warren, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • I think you're right that the Hotell Memo has little to do with Frank Scully's claims. The details don't mesh.

    My own reading of the memo interprets a sense of sarcasm in Hotell's tone. He simply does his duty in passing on the report and apparently attaches no credibility to it.

    Not withstanding the simple fact the FBI released the document, he doesn't describe craft, but 'so- called flying saucers.' To my mind, this is hardly the tone to take if there was a suspicion that, not one, but three spaceships and attendant (dead?) crew had been recovered by the USAF.

    The comments from a third-hand source about the flight suits are rather good though. This is the kind of detail that makes stories gather momentum. It's hard to read the description without mentally cross-referencing to contemporary G-suits. Even though I think the the details are fiction, I can't help but admire the mind that conceived such a good hook.

    The closing sentence appears tongue in cheek. If Hotell was a trusted confederate of Hoover, as you point out, his memos would take on a more personal relevance. By this I mean, memos would tend to be bereft of 'tone' in their generality, but when received from someone well-known to the recipient, would possibly contain some of their character too...their 'voice.'

    By Blogger Kandinsky, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • We can safely say that Hoover was referring to the Shreveport, Louisiana hoax in his handwritten note to Mr Ladd. See a memo from E.G.Fitch to D.M.Ladd dated 7/24/47, which specifically refers to Hoover's note and this case in the first paragraph. It is the 'La' case, not the 'LA' case. LA would refer to Los Angeles. 'La' refers to Louisiana and did so long before any US Post Office zip codes existed. Bill Moore once tried to fit this 'La' to Roswell. He and you are both wrong.

    You have not shown that Hoover ever had any interest in Roswell.
    The telex from Wyly merely indicated what the AF proposed to do, i.e. pass on to the local (Cincinnati office) the results of the examination of the debris. It does not say the AF will definitely do this. Obviously once the word had gone out from Ramey about the true nature of the debris, the AF felt it was unnecessary to say anything further to the FBI. But naturally those who want to read a cover-up into such activities will claim it means something more sinister. Why not name the researcher who discovered Wyly? It was a certain Stanton T.Friedman. (Who else?)

    Please demonstrate (by means of documentation) that Hoover had any real interest either in UFOs or crashed saucers, at any time.

    I believe Scully wrote some articles in late 1949 about crashed discs, perhaps in Variety magazine. These preceded his book, so maybe the Hottel memo was referring to these but I admit I don't know the answer here.

    Btw, the reason 'Kirton' appears in the telex in one FOIA set of documents but is censored in the FBI telex in another set of documents is perfectly simple. The person charged with the release was a bit careless and forgot to censor out some of the names. I believe the two releases were several weeks or months apart and were dealt with by different people.

    Don't attach too much importance to the 'urgent' tag in that FBI teletype either. You'll find this word used on some of the FBI papers dealing with George Adamski and van Tassel. I guess you are NOT an Adamski fan.

    Finally, although I concede it is not relevant, are you aware of a biography of Hoover (I forget its title/author) claiming that Hoover & Tolson had a gay relationship?

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • CDA:

    Bragalia is well aware of the homosexual relationship of the fellows involved here. (See the photograph Tony appended at the end of his post.)

    Tony also integrated the sexual relationship into his initial article but I suggested he avoid the topic as it merely would create grist for homophobes and take us into territory that isn't exactly pertinent.

    The relationship makes for an interesting scenario as Tony sees it, and I agree; a scenario having to do with secrecy, and other relevant elements.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • CDA -

    Here is a link to the original “Roswell Telex” from agent Wyly to Cincinnati SAC and to Hoover:

    http://www.project1947.com/roswell/fbi_tele.gif

    I somehow neglected to incorporate it in the Roswell Telex section of the article. Let’s have readers decide if Hoover would have acted on this or simply believed what he read in the papers! The answer is evident. Hoover would investigate on his own.

    CDA, I know that you have commented long ago about some of these documents, and your arguments are as weak now and they were then…

    AJB

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • AJB:

    Extract from telex:
    "Kirton advised would request Wright Field to advise Cincinnati office results of examination".

    There you have it. Are you certain Kirton did advise Wright Field? Perhaps he forgot. Are you positive that even if Kirton did so advise them, that they in turn advised the Cincinnati office?

    Of course you are not. Nothing is certain in all this. Even the debris. Are you quite certain it ever went to Wright-Pat? I'd say the chances were no more than 50-50. Again we simply do NOT have definitive papers to show this, only distant memories.

    What we do have is unlimited and fruitless speculation about who said what, who thought what, what so-and-so would have done and so on, all dating from post-1978. Interesting in its own way, but ultimately it gets us nowhere.

    I repeat: where is the documentation to show Hoover ever had the slightest interest in crashed UFOs? (I mean real crashed UFOs, not practical jokes or pranks).

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • As an addendum, let me put this to you, AJB:

    Is there any reason why the USAF at Ft.Worth, having established, after a cursory examination, that the 'flying disc' was a likely exterrestrial craft, would inform the FBI of this fact? And if they did so, why not in a TOP SECRET memo, instead of in a teletype which could be read by anyone?

    If you are postulating (as you are) that the said object was a recovered ET-piloted object from interplanetary or interstellar space and that the USAF was intent on guarding this secret for all it was worth, why on earth would they bother to notify another, civilian, agency?

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • "Nothing is certain in all this. Even the debris. Are you quite certain it ever went to Wright-Pat? I'd say the chances were no more than 50-50. Again we simply do NOT have definitive papers to show this, only distant memories."

    I am quite certain. Wright Field, as it was known until 1948, was the home for US crash intelligence. It was HQ for ATIC and Blue Book. No credible source I'm aware of, either pro or con in regards to an alien crash at Roswell, says otherwise. More research and less running of the mouth in complete ignorance would do you some good.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • CDA -

    You and I do not think the same, CDA. You are too insulated and myopic in your view, and you have no appreciation of what makes an investigator like Hoover “tick.”

    Kirton held out the prospect of Roswell crash debris results to Hoover. If they were then not provided to him, Hoover would have been even more intent on finding out what went on!

    Again, Hoover was not the kind to simply “believe” the press reports and his agent Wyly’s sparse report and think that that was the whole truth on the matter, and case closed. Such sparsely given information about such a potentially momentous event would have motivated Hoover even more so, CDA!

    I suggest that you do some reading of history books that detail what kind of man Hoover was. He was as “dogged” in his pursuit as that he physically resembled a bulldog!

    AJB

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • To AJB:
    You suggest I do some reading to see what kind of a man Hoover was. I suggest you produce one piece of documentation to show Hoover had the slightest interest in crashed UFOs.

    To Frank Stalter:
    You say anything to do with crashed aircraft/unknown craft would have gone to Wright-Pat for analysis. Really? Some sources tell us it went to Kirtland AFB.
    Other sources say the bodies went one place and the wreckage to another.

    WP did not have a monopoly on such things. They would have been the natural choice for the debris, but if it could be resolved or identified before going there, then that was the end of it. The USAF did not want to overburden WPAFB with useless data.

    And the only bit of info we have (Ramey's announcement at Ft Worth) says specifically that the flight to Wright Field would not be necessary. You can disbelieve this if you want, but that is the position. Until such time as you can demonstrate otherwise, by documentation, not 40 - 50 year old memories. The FBI teletype contradicts Ramey, but you have no way of knowing which is right. Plans can change quickly, just as they could in '47.

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • "To Frank Stalter:
    You say anything to do with crashed aircraft/unknown craft would have gone to Wright-Pat for analysis. Really? Some sources tell us it went to Kirtland AFB.
    Other sources say the bodies went one place and the wreckage to another."

    Some sources? Name them.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • CDA:

    You ask: "Why not name the researcher who discovered Wyly? It was a certain Stanton T.Friedman. (Who else?)"

    To the best of my knowledge, it was Moore - not Friedman - who found Wyly. About 20 years ago I purchased (from an outlet called - I think - "Video Dave," who sold loads of old cassetes, VCR tapes etc on UFOs) an audio-tape of one of Moore's lectures, and on the tape Moore makes the specific comment about how he found Wyly and how Wyly made the comment about having avoided hassle and wanting to keep it that way.

    I had a chat with Moore in person about this, and about several other Roswell people, including the seldom-discussed Conrad Zerbe, and a certain person receiving a check from a certain agency in relation to an alien body story, when I met with Moore at his offices in 2002.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • Seriously, do anyone really believe that the Freedom of Information Act, is going to get anyone the information that we really want to hear? Do you really think that whatever secrets that they want kept that way, are going to be released.I am always amazed that people really think they are going to get proof from our Government.

    By Blogger Sheila, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • Sheila:

    How right you are.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • "Seriously, do anyone really believe that the Freedom of Information Act, is going to get anyone the information that we really want to hear?"

    Yeah, that's about right. If it was that hot, it wouldn't have been put in writing.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Sunday, April 10, 2011  

  • Nick:

    You may be right about Moore & agent Wyly. Moore gave the impression in his 1985 paper on crashed saucers that he spoke to Wyly. Later I read somewhere in a paper by Friedman that he had located Wyly, so there is room for doubt. It may be that they both spoke to him, although from the nature of Wyly's response I rather doubt this!

    Frank Stalter:
    See "The Truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell" by Randle & Schmitt, p.169. No source is given but evidently 3 or 4 planes were loaded with crates labelled TOP SECRET destined for Kirtland, then Los Alamos, on July 9. (Also on p.170). I wonder what was in those crates. Remember this book is entitled "The Truth....."

    By Blogger cda, at Monday, April 11, 2011  

  • I don't have the Randle-Schmitt book, but I do have the Schmitt-Carey book. See page 40:
    "5. Special, unscheduled flights arrived from Washington, D.C.,
    with additional units arriving from White Sands AAFB in
    Alamogordo, N.M., Fort Bliss in El Paso, Texas, and Kirtland
    AAFB in Albuquerque. Unscheduled flights from Roswell
    transported wreckage or remains to Fort Worth, Texas,
    Patterson Field in Dayton, Ohio, Andrews AAFB in Washington,
    D.C., and the Los Alamos National Laboratory, via truck from
    Kirtland."

    Also, in the Roswell Dig Diaries, by William H. Doleman, Thomas J. Carey, Donald R. Schmitt, see page xxii:

    "At least one flight goes to Los Alamos, New Mexico, via Kirtland Field in Albuquerque, another to a base in Florida, but most head for Wright Field in Dayton."

    Page xxiv:

    "A plane flies from Wright Field to Fort Worth AAF, then returns to Wright Field with a large metallic container."

    Also, see pages 14, 23, 28, 202, 213, 274 and 982 of the 1995 USAF report on Roswell:

    Thanks for playing. ;O)

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Monday, April 11, 2011  

  • So we now have as destinations of the debris & bodies the following:

    1. Kirtland, 2. Los Alamos, 3. Ft.Worth, 4. White Sands, 5. Ft.Bliss, 6. Andrews AFB (Washington), 7. An unknown base in Florida, 8. And of course Wright Field.

    Eight different locations. What a marvellous way to preserve secrecy. The USAF should be congratulated for its remarkable coordination, all done within the space of 24 hours. And keeping it all top secret as well. I cannot explain it, but The AF obviously applied the Friedman-Rudiak theorem of crashed saucer logistics.

    Maybe the lot delivered to Andrews AFB was intended for Hoover's office at FBI HQ.

    By Blogger cda, at Monday, April 11, 2011  

  • CDA, as usual, makes a valid point (tongue in cheek).

    With all the permutations and venues for alien body destinations, the story becomes even more ludicous.

    Can't anyone nail this stuff down?

    (Not if it's bogus, as CDA implies, rightfully and sensibly.)

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, April 11, 2011  

  • I think it is interesting that if the intended effect is to create: (a) untraceable dead end (b)hide the obvious IE :it never occurred as described (c) lead intended pursuers going in deeper and deeper circles (d) suggest something did occur which didn't, then....
    1. It was and is a effective ploy
    2. The suggested effect of the military having a superior technology as a myth is sustained
    3. The misdirection of attention in the old shell and pea game as the simplest, most elegant deception known to man.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, April 11, 2011  

  • And to what end, Bruce?

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, April 11, 2011  

  • If a trick is successful, does the magician then reveal it? Look at what was occurring then which was an very infiltrated atomic program which the Russians were exploiting to achieve parity in an undeclared soft war, which we knew they very well might use. The trump card was to give them the very clear idea we had captured even more sophisticated weaponry and could exploit it.Propaganda was flying back and forth. Paranoia in the intelligence community was high. I would not bother looking in the U.S for this. While more difficult now, there are the KGB records on this, has anyone looked or try to look at them? I think what you would find is surprising. Do you think they were unconcerned?

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, April 11, 2011  

  • Oh, I agree with you Bruce.

    I just wanted you to spell it out for the visitors here.

    The Cold War was a mixture of paranoiac folly and dangerous gamesmanship.

    And it's still not over.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, April 11, 2011  

  • To get back to Hoover, why is it that with biographies about him, and all manner of rumors about his sexuality and personal life, there has been no mention of his interest in UFOs (if indeed he had any such interest)?

    After his Hoover-oriented article on Roswell, is it not up to Tony Bragalia to dig up such information if it exists?

    I now challenge him to do so. And it is not acceptable for him to hide behind the excuse of top secrecy. If Hoover was indeed a real fan of UFOs, crashed or otherwise, let us know, preferably with hard evidence, please.

    By Blogger cda, at Tuesday, April 12, 2011  

  • http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/132868/20110411/fbi-hottel-memo-reveals-ufo-hoax.htm

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Tuesday, April 12, 2011  

  • Thanks.
    Says it all, doesn't it?

    Bill Moore debunked this Hottel teletype as long ago as 1985. And remember Moore was once a passionate Roswell ET proponent.

    By Blogger cda, at Tuesday, April 12, 2011  

  • No it does not “say it all.” The problem in trying to connect the Hottel memo to the Scully hoax has been pointed out: the size of the reported discs recovered do not even remotely match; the number of crash victims differs by over 3.5 times and the 1800s clothing that the “Aztec aliens” wore did not resemble in the slightest what Hottel reported his Air Force investigator source told him. And Hoover had known about Scully for many, many years prior, as I have shown.

    As far as Hoover’s personal interest in UFOs- I am not sure what you mean by “personal” CDA…Hoovers’ personal and professional lives were essentially one and the same. And if you did even the scantest amount of reading on the subject (i.e. Nick Redfern’s book: “The FBI Files: The FBI’s UFO Top Secrets Exposed” or Bruce Maccabbee’s “UFO-FBI Connection) you would know that the FBI and the discs have a very long and deep history!

    AJB

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, April 12, 2011  

  • Greetings friends,
    Jesse Emspak article, link gived by Bruce Duensing (TY!) is imho the best summary you can find about the Hottel memo saga in the ufology microcosm.
    Anyway, you will have always UFO mythologists, who will attempt, consciously or not, to give it a resurrection, a new born, in order to have desesperatly their crashed saucer at Roswell :(
    It is awesome, but that's ufology.
    Cheers,
    Gilles Fernandez

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Tuesday, April 12, 2011  

  • Tony thank you for the detail on the Hottel memo. I don't ever remember reading that argument before on the dates of the book and the memo and the significant differences. Is this something you just found out or did some of the older UFO researchers, who seemed to accept the hoax theory, miss this?
    Joe
    UFO Media Matters
    Non-Commercial Blog

    By Blogger Joseph Capp, at Tuesday, April 12, 2011  

  • Sorry Tony just one more item. June Crain who worked for Write Patterson till 1952 claimed she had heard of three disk crashes in New Mexico which seems also to verify this. Most people forget June because she wasn't a general but she had more integrity that all of these people put together and she died right after she come forward of cancer.
    Joe
    UFOMM

    By Blogger Joseph Capp, at Tuesday, April 12, 2011  

  • Thanks for the June Crain corroboration Joe…very good point.

    I do not believe that other investigators have ever looked at the timing, compared the accounts, etc. I just decided to step back and look at all the documents combined – and that is what I came up with.

    AJB

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, April 12, 2011  

  • Just to repeat, for Joe Capp, and others', benefit:

    Bill Moore thoroughly debunked the Hottel memo in a paper of his in 1985. Moore, who was promoting Roswell at the time, shows how the Hottel memo stems from stories, passed from person to person, originating several months earlier from a Mr Silas M. Newton. They have nothing to do with Roswell or any genuine crashed UFO. Recall that Moore was very much a Roswell ET promoter & believer in the 1980s.

    By Blogger cda, at Tuesday, April 12, 2011  

  • CDA -

    Why do you embellish so? And when did you start thinking that Bill Moore was a good investigator? You condemn him on one hand (often) and then choose to use his belief on this memo selectively as support for your position on this!

    BTW, Moore viewed any other crash other than Roswell as “competition.”

    Further, the Wydette newspaper that you refer to (have you actually read the article?) – how can you or Moore prove that this is the source of Hottel’s information? Moore simply recount a speculative scenario where he believes that the story became “eighth hand” by listing various people and who may have talked to who…

    Show me that this really happened. Show me that this is how the AF got its information…I defy you.

    And you fail utterly – and continue to ignore - the very major, insurmountable differences between the two crashes number of occupants, size and dimension of craft, manner of dress, etc…

    AJB

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, April 12, 2011  

  • AJB:

    "Why do you embellish so? And when did you start thinking that Bill Moore was a good investigator? You condemn him on one hand (often) and then choose to use his belief on this memo selectively as support for your position on this!"

    I often condemn you but I do occasionally support you. No I cannot prove Moore is right and you are wrong. I believe him in this instance. His account, in this case, hangs together, whereas yours does not. Even Stan Friedman writes meaningful and sensible things. Think of that!

    Moore has done a 180-degree turn over Roswell. You and Friedman have done a zero turn. It is still possible you will do a small, maybe large, degree turn in the future. Friedman certainly will not.

    By Blogger cda, at Tuesday, April 12, 2011  

  • It is a given that I am not a well seasoned, known and respected researcher like some of you.

    That said, I must reitterate that there is quite a bit of info saying it was Mexico, not New Mexico. Not that something didn't happen in New Mexico, but the information being mentioned here did not originate with Scully, or Fick.

    As I have said before, and it is easily verifiable, the first mention of the saucer crash came a week before the Wyandotte Echo's article. It came from a Science Fiction Fanzine called: SpaceWarp.

    One of its veteran writers, Wilkie Conner, gave the details about a crash/landing in Mexico. Almost all of the details that later emerged from Scully and Co. seem to flow from Wilkie's source.

    The first name given for the source was Coulter. This is the last name of the Dep Commander at either Bliss, or Sam Houston at the time of the Mexico incident of October 1947.

    To this day, I am not sure why nobody else thinks this might be important...especially in light of the Robley Evans document.

    By Blogger Bob Koford, at Wednesday, April 13, 2011  

  • Bob:

    I would hope that one of the Roswell "experts" who visit here will take up your challenge and check this out.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, April 13, 2011  

  • Bob -

    This is potentially very important information of which I was entirely unaware! Thank you.

    I will email you privately about this….

    AJB

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, April 13, 2011  

  • This thread reminds me of the self organizing nature of a postulate, and pattern recognition. In Chaos theory there may be a coherence that in of itself signifies a self referential logic.
    * Icons, which resemble the referent, such as road signs.
    * Indices, which are related to the referent, such as smoke indicating fire.
    * Symbols, which are related to the referent only by convention.

    I suppose this includes words such as "It came from a Science Fiction Fanzine called: SpaceWarp..."

    This is becoming interesting from a...well, "different" perspective.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, April 13, 2011  

  • Not to take this discussion too far back, but there was talk earlier of how the bodies/craft could have been flown to 8 separate locations. While this is merely speculation, we do know that during WWII the same sort of thing happened with the Manhattan project so that everyone knew a LITTLE about what they were working on, and no one knew the whole truth (well, except Oppenheimer, and I think there was one other). Anyway, just speculative food for thought.

    By Blogger David, at Thursday, April 14, 2011  

  • Greetings,
    Just in order to inform you about this excellent and quasi exhaustive study of the Guy Hottel memo, by IsaacKoi (argumentation illustrated by historiographical documents):

    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread689049/pg1

    Spring Hollidays in France, so have good times too there !
    Cheers,
    Gilles Fernandez

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Friday, April 15, 2011  

  • Gilles,

    Isaac Koi, a pseudonym for a British attorney (or barrister), is always a thorough researcher.

    Thanks for the link, even though Above Top Secret is an ad-heavy web-site with lots of goofy commenters.

    Enjoy those constant (Spring) holidays in France.

    (How does anything get done there?)

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, April 15, 2011  

  • Aloha Richie,
    Yep he is, and his study of the memo is really impressive. In fact, IsaacKoi will create his own web site and uses ATS only as "technical solution" as himself explained (I read very rarely ATS too!). I have had the link because I'm a "fan" of Reality Uncovered forum where IsaacKoi posted yesterday his ATS link.

    All is fine in France for me TY so much: much times and "works" used for our french UFO skeptic forum, cause UFO skeptical sources are quasi inexistant in France, excepted our humble forum :(
    So it's cool that hollidays are coming: a week without the net will be very much appreciated by... my girlfriend^^
    CU soon friends !

    Gilles Fernandez

    By Blogger Gilles. F., at Friday, April 15, 2011  

  • Gilles:

    Enjoy the respite and time with your jeune fille.

    And try to get your countrymen to be more skeptical.

    (French history is replete with gullibility.)

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, April 15, 2011  

  • In my view, Schulgens memo represents one of the few genuine proof that the UFO phenomenon is real. Furthermore, it appears that the memo relates the UFO phenomenon to German technology developed at the end of the war. This I have written extensively about in my blog:

    http://ufohessdalen.blogspot.com/

    By Blogger hessdalenufo, at Saturday, March 17, 2012  

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