posted by RRRGroup at
Wednesday, April 13, 2011
Maybe the crash (of whatever it was) happened simply because, occasionally, shit happens.Although I wrote Body Snatchers (on the Japanese angle), I very much like Mac Tonnies' idea that the reason why the craft/debris seemed devoid of any technical parts etc is because it really was a type of reconnaissance balloon, but one built by cryptoterrestrials from here. And maybe the military really thought for a brief period it could have been one of their balloons (of a secret project)...until they found "something else" too - strange body-parts, not quite human, at the Dee Proctor site...In fact, the Proctor site is the most important site of all when it comes to resolving Roswell.
By Nick Redfern, at Wednesday, April 13, 2011
"It was an extraordinary combination of events that led to the most extraordinary discovery in history."So wrote AJB at the end of his original piece. I shall not repeat my earlier comments, but wish to put this to Tony: Do you still believe this event was "the most extraordinary discovery in history"? If so, why is it that among all the great scientific and historical discoveries listed by the numerous books and reference works, this event (Roswell) is never listed?
By cda, at Thursday, April 14, 2011
CDA:Mr. Bragalia wrote that it was the most "extraordinary" discovery, not the greatest or most significant discovery.Writer's embellishment, as they say.Mr. Bragalia likes hyperbole.RR
By RRRGroup, at Thursday, April 14, 2011
Nick:You seem to be on shifting sands re Roswell. Perhaps you can clarify your position.
Loretta Proctor said that Dee took her to “another site” where “something else happened.” I tried to get Loretta to speak more about that with me, but she was artful in dodging the question…Over time though, she became more forthcoming. Dee Proctor is key to the mystery. He, along with Mac, were the original, untainted, first-on-the-scene witnesses to the crash. And they were both the ones that said the least! To me, that is the most telling thing of all! In fact, Dee Proctor managed to actively avoid researchers for decades and hid behind his mother Loretta (literally.) Dee died young at 65 of cardiac arrest - a morbidly obese, divorced, raging alcoholic. He hid secrets in his heart. There is of course much more to the Dee Proctor story…a story that will be related by this author In a future article. AJB
For me it is much the same as why I believe that there is ample evidence for a physical historical Jesus. No one else on this planet has had such a profound effect on the whole system. There is just no way he didn't exist, as some seem to believe.In much the same way, so many people were affected/effected by what ever occurred near Roswell, that month in 1947, that I can't possibly bring myself to believe that it was all for a stupid balloon...whether it had a hexagonal disc suspened below it or not!
By Bob Koford, at Thursday, April 14, 2011
OMG!Bob....The Jesus story, while based on an actual occurrence, I believe, is a myth of epic proportions.Roswell, similarly....based upon an actual strange occurrence but a runaway myth after that.RR
Yes, but I think we agree that it was not an ordinary event, in any way.Another way of putting it would be the difference between a Nuclear detonation, and a blast of TNT. Even if it was ALOT of TNT, the long term effect is just not going to be there, as it would with the half-life consideration of the Nuclear blast.The differences are startling to say the least, and very evident.
Bob:The Jesus story, and to a lesser degree, the Roswell story cannot be addressed by simplistic hypotheticals, as you well know.Roswell and Christianity have been mined for essential details that seemed to have slipped discovery by almost everyone.Both stories are flummoxed by hoaxing, faulty memories, and propagandistic enterprises.Separating the wheat from the chaff has been and is daunting.Roswell's conglomeration of stories, from various kinds of persons, from the true to the sociopaths, have created a mixed up myth.Gilles Fernandez and Christopher Allen (CDA) are right to be skeptical.Tony Bragalia is a Christian and a Roswell ET believer.The twain may never meet, but both keep trying to arrive at the reality, which is more complex than most UFO aficionados think.Briging Jesus or demons (see Redfern's "Final Events") into the fray merely makes the search for the ultimate truth even harder than it would normally be.Amen...RR
CDA:No, I wouldn't say I'm shifting sands. The problem I have with a lot of Roswell researchers is there unwilligness to even consider anything else beyond the theory they have promoted for so long (usually the ETH).I don't feel the need to be tied to one scenario if further data comes along to suggest another.For example, I do still believe that if we are ever able to 100 percent prove what happened at Roswell, it will be shown to be a dark and dubious balloon-based event of human origins, in which human beings were used (as crews).But, do I feel the need to avoid exploring other avenues that might suggest a radically different view? No.In fact, it's essential. There's nothing worse than a Ufologist with his or her mind made up to the point where they are satisfied they are absolutely correct, and therefore won't look at any other angle.There's no doubt in my mind that bodies (or actually body-parts) were found on the ranch, although not at the main debris site, which takes us away from either weather-balloons or Mogul balloons.The 3 most important people in this aspect of the story are Dee Proctor, Sheridan Cavitt, and Bill Rickett.And with bodies in the equation, for me it's either a military experiment, or something definitively Fortean/anomalous.I still think it's the former, but can we ignore or write-off the latter? Not at all. I just wish more people who investigate Roswell would investigate the whole thing, not just from the persepectives that might help bolster their own theories.And even if you have a theory, don't ignore other ones. Study them anyway, and comment on them if something tangible turns up.As for the Jesus comments: yes, I would agree he was a real person who influenced a lot of people.But the son of a God that no-one can prove even exists? Pleeeeez!
By Nick Redfern, at Thursday, April 14, 2011
Tony:Rich says, "Tony Bragalia is a Christian and a Roswell ET believer."This truly is not meant as sarcasm, but given that you spend so much time investigating Roswell in a search for proof, how do you reconcile that approach, with a belief in Christianity, which has thrived on faith and zero proof?Isn't there, to a degree, a conflict in approach where with Roswell the search for proof, documents, witnesses etc is seen by you as essential to make the case, but that you can be a Christian without evidence of Heaven, Hell, etc?
I brought up the Jesus comparison, not Tony. He may have something he wants to say in this regards, but i don't want him to get accused of something that I did.I also did not bring him up in the context of him being the son of God, or not. I brought him up for the comparison of long term effect on the environment.I have my beliefs in this, and others have theirs. But the comparison is still valid where those who think nothing importartant occurred...and that is all. As far as body parts and Roswell are concerened, what ever happened to the document mentioned in the early eighties that supposedly mentioned finding body parts? I'm not talking about Bill Cooper here. I remember a period of time when this supposed document was coming to the light of day, but only saw a bad copy in a bad documentary.It also appeared at the same time the Doty documents utilizing the HQCR44 terminology. I believe it was about the shooting of a security guard at Monsanto.Is this part of your package of evidence Nick?
Rich is joking about the “Christian” part of course.The Roswell ET believer - unabashedly so… I have never attached myself to any specific religion (though I was raised loosely as a Catholic till 12) I have a sense that there is something beyond our known dimensions, beyond the “material.” I think on that most all of us can agree. AJB
Tony:You state: "I have a sense that there is something beyond our known dimensions, beyond the “material.” I think on that most all of us can agree."Thanks for clarification. And I do agree that most people have a sense that there is more than this world to our existence. My biggest criticism of organized religion is precisely that: it's organized. And it's organized according to certain beliefs, depending on the relevant religion.And, worse still, mainstream religion is being used ever more significantly as a means of control and influence (chiefly via fear and guilt). I have a friend working on a major book on the way in which certain people within the military want the troops groomed (to an ever-growing degree) to view the war on terror as a religious war - the battle between godly good and demonic evil. This is, of course, dangerous, dangerous ground. Soldiers should be viewed as soldiers, not "religious warriors."I don't dispute there might be a life after death (might), but for people of this religious persuasion or that religious persuasion to say their particular religion is right and someone else's is wrong etc etc...well, that's where the problem is. Not whether there is "something else" after death or not.
Bob:PART 1:No, the info I have is not relative to older documents or stories.I can reveal parts of it now, because it's going to surface - in full - by the mid-to-late summer anyway.And, no, admittedly, it won't put Roswell to rest, nor will it satisfy the skeptics because it's just witness testimony, that is second-hand. But, I'm admitting all that up-front right now, so people like CDA will specifically see that I am at least being open and honest, and not hyping this up to be something more than it will turn out to be.Basically, I have, for some time, been in contact with the family of a man (all of these will be named by June/July), who worked in certain Intel fields from the late 40s to the mid-60s, who had access to files on a strange event in New Mexico in the summer of 1947.It's clear that the event at issue is Roswell, since it talked about Brazel etc; although the specific Roswell name was never apparently used in the files (aside from in reference to the wreckage having been taken to the base, and in relation to the local newspaper having covered the event).To me, this is important, because having personally been to the Brazel site (and even stood in the old building where he hauled some of the wreckage), the most recent time being in February of this year, I can tell you how far away it really is from the town of Roswell, a good 90-minute drive.Anyway, the story I have is one that was given to the family by the man in question (in the late-1980s, when he was on his last legs), and the reason being that he felt utterly disgusted by something that he read in the files, and which he later heard firsthand from certain players in the story.Namely, that the entire key to the event is actually not the debris field (the nature of which is, of course, open to interpretation), but the less well known aspect involving Brazel and the young Dee Proctor.
Bob:PART TWO:The story is that while the military could dismiss (to the media and the public) the wreckage as weather-balloon based, what Brazel and Proctor supposedly found not too far away at another location could not be explained away: namely, pulverized body-parts that gave every indication of having fallen from a great height onto another part of the large ranch, and which were obviously not part of anything to do with a weather-balloon. But which were stumbled on by Proctor and Brazel.The man in question had a story to tell that stuck with him all his life, and deeeply affected him - namely, the way in which the military had put the absolute fear of God into Proctor, then a young child who probably didn't fully appreciate what he was seeing anyway.And that, over time, the military made at least 2 covert visits to Proctor, the last he was aware of in the early/mid 60s, when it was perceived that Proctor was by then at an age that he would understand and appreciate the importance of staying quiet.There are references in the story to Proctor being highly angered by having essentially been dumped into this sorry mess against his wish or volition, and wanting nothing to do with it, and to forget it. And (not surprisingly) reacting in a highly inflammatory way to his intel/military visitors, which is also perfectly understandable and justified.There is much, much more to this, with Cavitt and Rickett apparently being deeply, deeply involved at the Proctor "body-parts site," although there is no suggestion at all that they played any sort of role at all in the intimidation of what was, at the time, a young, terrified boy. But someone was involved in that.The story I have, has convinced me that whatever the body-parts were, it is this site that is the most important one in the entire story.And it's ironic that one of the biggest keepers of the secret was not just the military, but a young boy who was ultimately driven into a highly damaged psychological state by not just what he saw, but also by repeated, albeit occasional, secret intimidation for at least a decade and a half, and which left him feeling like a permanent Sword of Damocles was forever hanging over him.Proctor is the key to solving Roswell. The absolute key.
Nick:"Proctor is the key to solving Roswell. The absolute key."Really? What about Mac Brazel himself? What about Vernon Brazel, also aged 7 at the time, who has never been heard of since and has never been interviewed by anyone?What is so special about Dee Proctor? And these 'files' supposedly seen by your contact. How did he get access to them, and why are you so certain (having not seen them yourself) that they refer to Roswell? Is it not just as likely that they refer to Aztec?After all, Aztec has now pushed Roswell into the background a little!
CDA:You ask: "What about Mac Brazel himself?" Brazel was effectively silenced, and as an adult at the time he appreciated the gravity of the situation. And he was dead by the 60s, before anyone else came asking, like Moore or Friedman.You ask: "What about Vernon Brazel, also aged 7 at the time, who has never been heard of since and has never been interviewed by anyone?"Didn't Tony B look into this? Maybe I'm wrong, don't know for sure.You ask: "What is so special about Dee Proctor?"He was one of the few civilians who saw body-parts at the other site. As a child he was by definition a wild-card, and someone deeply involved, but who obviously did not have the mindset of an adult when it occurred, and who was therefore of some concern to the military, re how the military should handle his involvement. Probably not too many military personnel would feel good or proud at having to put the fear of god into a shaking, terrified child hence why they returned in later years and issues veiled warnings about speaking out as an adult. And hence why his case was an awkward one from the military perspective: giving the rough treatment to a rancher would not be so hard. Doing likewise to a very young kid would hardly what most soldiers would want to be the highlight of their career.You ask: "And these 'files' supposedly seen by your contact. How did he get access to them?"This is an interesting area. His involvement was from having a legal/intel background, and was in relation to examining certain claims of illegal, unconstitutional things done in the name of national-security in relation to US citizens/members of the public connected with Roswell, of who Proctor was one. In other words, this was a deep, internal inquiry relative to concerns of law-breaking and threats made to American citizens, and maybe worse.The irony was that his involvement in Roswell was not from the perspective of anyalyzing the wreckage, autopsying bodies etc, as various people have claimed etc.But, purely from an angle not unlike that of Steven Schiff in the 1990s, who had deep concerns about Roswell, and the way things had been handled back in the 40s.It was much the same here: not an investigation of what the craft was etc, but an internal, Intel-based inquiry addressing claims that New Mexican citizens had their rights and perhaps even safety severely compromised years earlier.Reportedly, had it continued, certain high-ranking military personnel might have been ordered to testify, and might even have faced jail time for certain actions. As it happened, i was told, is that it was impressed upon this legal inquiry team, that no-one should judge how the military reacted when confronted back in 47 with what they found. And that if harsh things were done, and laws were broken, and people's liberties were affected, it was a minor part of a much bigger concern. The result: this probing of potentially illegal actions was shut down.You ask: "and why are you so certain (having not seen them yourself) that they refer to Roswell? Is it not just as likely that they refer to Aztec?"Simple: see my comment that you are replying to!!! I specifically said the files referenced Brazel, and referenced the material taken to the Roswell base, and the 1947 date. There's no doubt the reference was to Roswell.
Thanks, Nick. I look forward to this info being brought out./Bob
One thing I'm sure of . . . Ufology will never be an organized religion. :O)
By Frank Stalter, at Friday, April 15, 2011
Nick:OK, so my reference to Aztec was partly in jest. But these alleged files - sorry, but I have grave doubts of their existence. Look at all the 'files' that are alleged to exist re Roswell, Aztec, even Rendlesham (tons of them, literally, according to Peter Robbins), Trindade, ....Any chance of the FBI releasing them on The Vault?Bob Koford:See above. Don't hold your breath.
By cda, at Friday, April 15, 2011
My take on all of the above is that it is a forensic examination of the bones left behind when the spirit of this country departed. I once wrote a short essay entitled "Jesus of Roswell" so some of the comments struck me as appropriate.There is a void that is feared and not taken as an absence of grasping. No amount of documents will give anyone any ultimate satisfaction. No witness, no photograph, no smoking gun will turn this tide which has nothing to do with what happened versus what did not. It is a symptomatic of a loss, a tear in the fabric of our mythologies to immediately begin the construction of a linear counter narrative as to why the patient was lost, while we were waiting for flying cars, radar ranges and t.v dinners.The wheels are making a noisy racket as the bearings on which this dynamo turns as a symptom of it's failure, we search for angels of materialism in strange forms. The paranormality of the prosaic. Sigh.
By Bruce Duensing, at Friday, April 15, 2011
I apologize ahead of time for mentioning this, and I am bent over awaiting a swift kick:The document in the early 1990's was supposedly a Twining doc, dated 13 September 1947 and mentioned body parts of both unknown civilians and Air Force personnel.Since I wrote it off then as hype put out by the same guys who did the "Stecker Memorandum", I am intrigued to hear of more recent info about "body parts"
By Bob Koford, at Friday, April 15, 2011
CDA:PART 1: Even though I say so myself, these are not, technically-speaking, files on the Roswell event itself.And, even though I ALSO say so myself, if any files on Roswell are going to surface, it might very well be these. Here's why:They are not secret files on the Roswell affair itself. In other words, they are not real equivalents of the MJ12 documents.Rather, these are files on an internal investigation to determine if military personnel broke the law, violated the rights of US citizens etc.The alleged illegal actions were certainly described to me by the family as being a result of Roswell. And the files were generated out of the investigation of the claims of law violations, and interviews with military personnel involved in the crash (with military attorneys present in more than a few cases when the interviews were undertaken).So, in other words (and all this will come out by the summer anyway in far more detail), here's the essential data I have:There was someone (I truthfully don't know who, and neither does the family) living in Roswell or the surrounding areas who had been threatened by the military at the time of the crash, and they stewed and boiled and bottled-up all their anger for a long time re the way they were treated.They then decided enough was enough and made a tactful approach to a certain law-enforcement agency and told the story of what happened to them back in 47 - having their life literally threatened.
By Nick Redfern, at Friday, April 15, 2011
CDA:PART 2:From there, it was deduced by the agency in question that the military may very well have exceeded what was seen as acceptable, and may have violated the rights of US citizens.Thus, then, an approach was made to the military by this same agency, and an internal military investigation was duly launched to determine what had gone on back in 47.I should stress this was NOT an internal investigation to determine if aliens crashed at Roswell, but an internal investigation into the civil-rights violation angle.As a result,it became very much a detective style story, with the military legal team involved having to track down significant military people who worked at Roswell at the time and interview them about what happened, many of who were by then retired (which is actually not too dissimilar to what the USAF did with its Mogul investigation by visiting Cavitt at his home and interviewing him).Some reminded the military legal team they were now retired and had citizen rights and refused to cooperate without an attorney present. Others did speak out and outlined what had happened at Roswell, and admitted that citizen rights had been violated, but justified it because of what they said was the extraordinary, unique set of circumstances involved.So, the source of this story, as told to his family, was of him helping to generate files relative to Roswell, to help build a picture and understand what happened, and create a case in the event that prosecution of senior military personnel was perceived as being warranted.Now, I mentioned in an earlier comment that he saw some Roswell files. That's true he did - he apparently DID see certain original Roswell files on 2 occasions and was given a briefing on what supposedly occurred at Roswell - but this was not done to help build his case. Instead, this was done, in a closed room, where the military impressed upon him the importance of not opening up the Roswell can of worms - even if his reasoning (the internal investigation to determine if US citizens had their rights violated) was sound.The upshot was that the investigation was closed down by his superiors.So, back to your point about whether or not these files might surface: I really think they could if a persistent sleuth goes after them.After all, they are NOT the super-secret, Holy Grail-like, MJ12-style, alleged files on the crash, the autopsies etc etc.Instead, they are files on an internal investigation of US military personnel allegedly involved in legally oveerstepping the mark when dealing with American civilians in a specific event.In that respect, these are NOT "secret Roswell files." The case is secondary to the primary focus: was the law broken?Maybe we shouldn't be looking for the Holy Grail-type files on Roswell, because they are likely buried so deep we will never find them.But, looking for files like these, that have a decidedely alternative link to the case, might be much more profitable.
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