UFO Conjecture(s)

Friday, February 03, 2012

Nick Redfern on George Adamski -- an occult connection?

Nick Redfern is interested in the occult element in the UFO panoply and his book Final Events delved into the matter extensively.

Now Nick has implicated George Adamski, via his Inside the Space Ships co-author Desmond Leslie, in the occult.

George Adamski's wild tales shouldn't, I think, be dismissed as they readily are and have been by ufology. There's more there than meets the eye.

Nick, by co-habiting the occult with Adamski, and others, does a disservice to the UFO phenomenon I believe, cluttering it with a paranormal overlay that merely confuses the topic.

But Nick is no slouch when it comes to supporting his theses, and you can read his take on Adamski and Leslie by clicking HERE.



  • Rich:

    No, totally wrong!

    The point of the article is nothing to do with me!

    The article is - as I note from the very beginning - a look at how and why the Collins Elite came to view UFOs as demonic.

    I don't support the demonic thesis. But, then, that's not the point of the article.

    Rather, the article is written to show how the Collins Elite believed the data on Adamski and Desmond Leslie supported the thesis.

    That is two very different things.

    And, so there can be no mistaking my views, in my Final Events book itself, I strictly note for people the following, early on in the book:

    QUOTE FROM FINAL EVENTS: "It is important to note that the accounts, beliefs, theories and conclusions that I uncovered are strictly those of the people who have been willing to have them publicized."

    I have always said that I wrote the book not to support the demonic angle, but because I found it fascinating that the government clandestinely funded a group to research this area.

    For me, that's the meat of the story - not that UFOs are demonic (or, in my view, they are not), but that there was a government project that believed this, and was tasked with investigating it for years.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • Jim Moseley's famous exposure issue of Saucer News definitively demonstrates that that there ISN'T more than meets the eye when it comes to Adamski.

    Unless you are looking for religion.



    By Blogger Lance, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • And as far as burger cook religions go, it's not a bad one.


    By Blogger Lance, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • A little religion, Lance, doesn't hurt anyone...a little!

    Adamski's was (and is) okay with me, but I'm a tolerant bastard, sometimes.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • Rich:

    It's important to note the views and beliefs in the article are those of the Collins elite - NOT of me!

    I specifically note near the top of the article that they had no evidence to support the demonic idea - just a belief.

    So, I'm not endorsing the demonic theory. I'm explaining how and under what circumstances a group in government came to believe it.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • So what is your view of Adamski, Nick?

    I consider you an expert on the Contactee bunch.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • It was the first book "Flying Saucers have Landed" that was co-authored with Desmond Leslie. "Inside the Space Ships" was written by Adamski alone.

    All 3 of Adamski's books were ghost written anyway. Moreover Adamski's text of "FS Have Landed" was allegedly sent to Ray Palmer 10 years before it appeared in FSHL, with the Venusian replaced by Jesus Christ!

    At least that is what Palmer told us, but nobody else seems to have seen the manuscript.

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • What if Adamski was a victim of Caravaca's Distortion entities?

    Changing the Jesus visitation to the Venusian visitation was a stroke of genius.

    Adamski didn't end up like Joseph Smith thereby....

    (By the way, thanks for the corrective, CDA.)


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • Rich:

    My view on Adamski is that he almost certainly had some real experiences with the phenomenon behind the UFO puzzle, and that the phenomenon manifested for him in the guise of what was in the cultural mindset of the day: saucers, human-looking aliens (as per The Day The Earth Stood Still etc), etc.

    However, there's no doubt in mind that his (few) genuine experiences were far more shamanic/altered state-like in nature (which is the way in which many such events occur, I believe), and which also account for interactions with everything from demons to angels, fairies to Virgin Mary manifestations, etc.

    I also believe Adamski got caught up in his own hype, loved the limelight and went on to make a catstrophic error by faking a lot of stuff (accounts and photos).

    And, today, it's this controversial latter stuff he is remembered for - not the other, earlier (in some cases, FAR EARLIER) things he was involved in that I do believe were evidence of interaction with something, but in an altered state and certainly not with literally real saucers and long haired aliens from Venus with bloody stupid names.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • CDA:

    You say: "It was the first book "Flying Saucers have Landed" that was co-authored with Desmond Leslie. "Inside the Space Ships" was written by Adamski alone."

    Yes. I specifically state in the article that it was Flying Saucers have Landed that was co-written.

    I just used the Inside the Space Ships cover as an illustration, as I already had that image on my computer (and I couldnt be bothered to get the "Landed" cover off the Net and format it etc).

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • I see Adamksi much as you do, Nick, and I add he might have been a victim of Caravaca's Distortion entities, if they exist.

    (I'll have to ask Jose what he thinks about Adamski.)


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • I can't see why Nick might gauge Adamski's chances of having a "real" saucer experience as "almost certain". This seems to be completely unsupportable and when it comes down to it almost meaningless.

    And if Nick is just talking about some vague peyote-esque "experience" unrelated to saucers then why even mention it in this regard.

    What Adamski was selling was the idea that Venusians visited him in flying saucers. Now how much of that is "almost certain"?

    There is evidence that Adamski was looking, not for spiritual but for financial experiences even from the very beginning.

    This absurd believer mindset to apologize when any UFO guru is exposed as a fraud is so prevalent among the saucer faithful that it has become a cliche. I have heard it for Adamski, Menger, Fry, Carr, Lazar, Imbrogno and many others. It's part of the piss poor integrity of those who peddle the crap and mindlessly believe in it.

    Sure, his first experience were real...Jesus!




    By Blogger Lance, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • Adamski was also a failed science fiction writer, from the late 1940s. Even Tim Good admitted this. And he had his organisation "The Royal Order of Tibet" in S. California from the 30s.

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • Lance:

    Surely Adamski was a sociopath, psychopath, or even an out-and-out psychotic, but he was charming and appeared lucid.

    So he had all the features of a con man.

    But did he have an aberrational encounter or event, mentallly or in situ at some time in his past that propelled his wayward search for financial gain and notoriety?

    There are elements in his stories that are arcane, esoteric which only a well-read person would know, and use to con people.

    The con is brilliant, in its way.

    But I think there is something more to the Adamski charade or story.

    Is it worth going after? Probably not.

    But Nick likes to pursue the fringe, my point when I posted his proffered link.

    You are wise to eschew the nonsense, but guys like Nick and Bragalia are fascinated by such things and who are we to quell their weird proclivities?

    I liked Adamski. He was a great story teller or liar and brightened my days with the possibility of Venusian life.

    It was like being at a P.T. Barnum event.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • Nick
    RE: Traditional Magic \ UFOs
    Long ago and far away in another part of the galaxy I met a fellow named Allan Noonan in Berkley California and spent two days in a quite beautiful white mansion with several of his followers. He is all but forgotten, but it is a similar tale, very similar. Sort of a continuation on a variation.
    From Wikipedia:
    "In 1947, Allen Noonan was a pictorial sign painter in Long Beach, California, who that year claimed to have a telepathic encounter with a UFO. He then changed his name from Allen Noonan to Allen Michael. He claimed to have physically encountered a flying saucer in 1954 at Giant Rock in the Mojave Desert of California. During the Summer of Love, he had a vegan restaurant on the northeast corner of Haight and Scott streets in San Francisco, California, called the Here and Now (also called the Mustard Seed). His group lived in two communes in two large houses during the late 1960s and early 1970s in Berkeley, California, called The One World Family."
    What struck me and still does, they had quite a lot of capital. I did not buy into the schtick, but it was a very interesting experience. Bottom line? A lot of traditional "recycled magical" stuff like the Rosy Cross etc behind the scenes. A delicatessen approach. Nice folks, good food.
    I thought you be be interested.
    He looked just like the fellow from Heaven's Gate, very piercing eyes..he seemed lucid enough.
    Ever hear of him?

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • BTW..Your post brought that experience back. I wonder if Allan &co are still around? I hadnt thought of that. You might get an insight into that mindset if he and or they are still around.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • Lance:

    So there can be no mistake: I do NOT - AT ALL - conclude Adamski ever met aliens, ever saw a genuine "nuts and bolts" saucer/UFO, or had any sort of interaction with literal ETS - EVER.

    I conclude that, from very carefully studying his whole life back to his very earliest years (a period many don't focus on) we do see evidence of him having had some unusual experiences with what I personally conclude lies at the heart of the UFO phenomenon.

    But, while I conclude he had interaction with the phenomenon, his experience(s) (like so many) was /were visionary and non-physical, at least as we term it.

    You say: "This absurd believer mindset to apologize when any UFO guru is exposed as a fraud is so prevalent among the saucer faithful..."

    As someone who does not conclude the truly profound UFO phenomenon has ANYTHING to do with aliens or saucers from other star systems - but something that masquerades in this form, among others - I'm hardly "among the saucer faithful."

    Plus: I have no need to apologize for Adamski or anyone. If the issue had been another Contactee - let's pick Buck Nelson as a perfect example - I would say his story was told bullshit.

    Highly entertaining bullshit but bullshit all the same.

    I could go on and on. I don't apologize - rather, I say it as I see it. Adamski, I conclude, did have some experiences.

    Other Contactees were most certainly con-men, others were plain nutty, some deranged, a few had their heads in the clouds (although not literally), etc.

    The Contactees were, at the end of the day, human beings, and human beings are creatures that are deeply complexed, flawed, and fascinating in different ways.

    I don't apologize any more for concluding SOMETHING happened to Adamski than I do for concluding NOTHING happened to Buck Nelson.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • Lance and all:

    It's much the same with Truman Bethurum and his entertainingly wild story of meeting shapely space-babe Aura Rhanes ("tops in shapeliness and beauty" is how Bethurum described her) atop Mormon Mesa, Nevada in 1952.

    Bethurum's story fascinates me. Of course he didn't meet - EVER - some space chick from a planet called Clarion and who called herself Aura Rhanes. That's total bollocks.

    But, if you go back and carefully read his entire output of books (which I own), you'll see that - with hindsight - his experiences clearly ALL occurred while he was in a hypnagogic type state.

    There's very, very little doubt of that. Not a hoaxer, not a fantasist (in the accepted sense), but someone clearly affected via auditory and visual stimuli in a very altered state.

    Plus, at the time gorgeous Aura came along, Bethurum's second marriage was already failing.

    His then wife was in California and he was working in Nevada - in other words, he was away from his wife, and his subconscious projects into his world this hot babe who can take him away from his troubles.

    She didn't. How could she? She never existed - or at least not physically.

    However, there is a school of thought that suggests the state of hypnagogia may open us up to other realms and the enigmatic entities said to inhabit them.

    Controversial? Well, of course it is!

    But, if true, I don't rule out the idea that while sleeping atop Mormon Mountain (Yes, MORMON Mountain...er, Joseph Smith and his Contactee-like experiences, anyone?), and in a profound hypnagogic state, Bethurum interacted to a significant degree with some intelligence that manifested in the form of the dominating thing in Bethurum's altered-state subconscious - a hot chick who could take him away from all his troubles.

    And, it took on a semblance of reality for Bethurum - but surely not physically or literally, but definitively at a subconscious, visionary level.

    Friends, family and work colleagues said he became obsessed by the Aura Rhanes character.

    Indeed, Bethurum's third wife even shared the same initials in her name as Aura. Number three was named Alvira Roberts. Even the last letters of both names are the same: "A" and "S"

    Aura Rhanes Vs Alvira Roberts: Clearly there was some deeply subconscious shit going on here.

    By all accounts, Bethurm never got over the Aura Rhanes experiences, but did get out of the massive fog of despair and stress caused by the breakdown of his second marriage, and when he married his very own "A.R." all became good.

    Now, the skeptic might say this is just a fascinating, psychological/medical case.

    But, when it occurs in a hypnagogis state, atop an isolated peak (which is a classic sort of location for visionary experience throughout history - remember a bloke called Moses? - and one called MORMON Mesa, no less), and where the witness is radically changed for the better (as Bethurum was), I have to wonder if projecting the subconscious worries of the person while in a distinctly altered state (in this case, hypnagogia) alerts "something" to that projection, and that sometimes then "comes calling" in a motif that is guaranteed to elevate and help the person.

    Not much different, really, to praying and getting a response. It's just the interpretation of the nature of the phenomenon that responds - a god, an alien, or whatever may be the current archetypal advanced entity or deity in the human psyche.

    Mountains, deserts, isolated locales, altered states, yearing for change and direction - these are all at the heart of what provokes interaction with the true unknown behind the UFO phenomenon.

    And it's got fuck-all to do with ETS from Zeta Ridiculous, or whatever it's called.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • Bruce:

    Yes, Noonan had a significant (but seldom discussed) link to Giant Rock.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • Wow! What next? UFOI Pay Per View events on cable? I am not even going to begin to chime in on this one topic wise (why spoil a perfect record), but I had to buck up, suck up, and get real enough to make CLEAR, you guys just truly, BLEW ME AWAY!!!!

    Holy MONSTER Ufology discourse (super civilized and intelligent discourse I might add, too) here guys!

    From the time Lance fired up the after burners to Nick's masterful summery of the intangible origins of UFO consciousness squared...


    You guys combined here just had me feeling like the ufological equivalent of Harvey F'n Keitel in the first half of the Bad Lieutenant!

    If I didn't think it might detract from the whole affair, I'd suggest what I just experienced here was akin to a religious experience.

    No BS, this thread kicked some serious literary UFO ass, and rightly so, right out of the blue.


    By Blogger Jeff Davis, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • @Nick:

    Nice reply!

    There quite a few other contactees that I find interesting.

    I will relate a funny (to me) story from the Long John Nebel show:

    Nebel went out to Oklahoma City, OK to see the Otis Carr saucer launch in 1959. Apparently the whole saucer world converged there as well and there was a wild gathering at a motel there.

    During the downtime, Nebel and his panelist, the fascinating Ellery Lanier, interviewed some of the attendees like Gabriel Green, Mrs. Dan Fry, etc.

    One of the guys they interviewed was a little known contactee named Calvin Girvin, author of The Night Has a Thousand Saucers.

    During the interview, Lanier asks Calvin if he drew his inspiration from the famous poem by Francis William Bourdillon:

    The night has a thousand eyes,
    And the day but one;
    Yet the light of the bright world dies
    With the dying of the sun.

    The mind has a thousand eyes,
    And the heart but one;
    Yet the light of a whole life dies
    When love is done.

    Girvin dully reveals that he wasn't even aware of the poem or the saying and claims that he just came up with the title on his own.

    Now as far as this claim you are making about hypnogogic/pompic experiences somehow being something more that physiological, I have to gently respond that evidence for this is of the exact same quantity (and quality!) as that for Adamski's blond space boys.



    By Blogger Lance, at Friday, February 03, 2012  

  • Lance:

    LOL re Girvin, yeah, there were some real characters in the Contactee field.

    Today's Ufology has lost much of its humor, unfortunately - and its characters!

    Anyway, moving on...

    You say: "Now as far as this claim you are making about hypnogogic/pompic experiences somehow being something more that physiological, I have to gently respond that evidence for this is of the exact same quantity (and quality!) as that for Adamski's blond space boys."

    No need to gently respond. I agree - there is no evidence. If the event is visionary, and the phenomenon interacts with us in a vision-like state, then we may never be able to find evidence.

    And, indeed, a good argument can be made that this is why evidence is ALWAYS lacking - like when people try and steal something from a UFO: they always get thwarted at the last minute, etc etc.

    But, whether internal or external, people in altered states - such as hypnagogia - report interaction with different entities.

    There's a lot of data suggesting that it MAY not all be internal.

    The following is a word-for-word extract from my "Contactees" book, on the Herbert Schrimer case, which I believe falls into the same category:


    Dr. Leo Sprinkle, who was deeply involved in the investigation of the December 1967 experience of patrolman Herbert Schirmer, said: “Sgt. Schmirer…claimed that he often experienced a ‘ringing,’ ‘numbness,’ ‘buzzing’ in his ears before going to sleep (around 1:30 a.m. or 2:00 a.m.): he believed he had experienced precognitive dreams... he said he felt concern and ‘hurt’ since the UFO sighting; he described disturbances in his sleep, including incidents in which he awoke and found that he was ‘choking’ his wife and handcuffing his wife’s ankle and wrist; he said that his wife sometimes woke up during the night and placed his gun elsewhere so that it was not in his boots beside his bed where he had been keeping it.”
    Of course, sleep-disturbances (sometimes of a violent, graphic and disturbing nature), and hearing unusual sounds – such as “buzzing”-type noises – at the moment of sleep, or upon waking, are classic facets of hypnagogia. In view of this, the notion should not be dismissed that Schirmer’s experience was purely an internal one, and one that was provoked, controlled and dictated by intelligences that had the ability to influence those people particularly susceptible to hypnagogia; as Schirmer appears to have been."



    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Saturday, February 04, 2012  

  • Jeff:

    Thanks! I'm sure another episode of our UFO show will be along soon! LOL.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Saturday, February 04, 2012  

  • Also...

    While undertaking research into - and actively participating in - the effects of psychedelics on the human body and mind in the Amazon Jungle in the 1960s, terrence McKennna was advised by one of his contacts to sit down, and “watch a portion of the sky where, reportedly, a UFO might appear.”

    After a while, and as the psychedelics took effect, Mckenna, to his astonishment, saw a “strange, thin, horizontal cloud forming near the horizon.”

    The cloud grew in length; it then divided in two, before finally recombining and appearing directly overhead.

    But, as the phenomenon got ever closer, Mckenna could see it was no cloud. Rather, it was nothing less than a flying saucer of the exact type that Orthon would have been proud to pilot.

    McKenna stated later: “I recognized this thing. It looked like the end cap of a Hoover vacuum cleaner; exactly the same fake saucer as in George Adamski’s photos. This thing flew right over my head, and it was as phony as a three-dollar bill. I knew it was a fake.”

    McKenna could only suggest that non-human entities from a realm that was either psychic or alien in origin were having fun with him – while he was high on psychedelics - by appearing in the one form that was most likely to confound his intellectual sensibilities.

    I know many disagree with me, but in my view the altered state realm(s) represent(s) the key to unlocking the truth behind what it is that interacts with us, how, and why.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Saturday, February 04, 2012  

  • Mr. Redfern,

    You're sounding a lot like Jose Antonio Caravaca.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, February 04, 2012  

  • Max:

    Well, a lot of people mistakenly think I'm a "nuts and bolts" type when it comes to UFOs.

    Others think I'm plain nuts (but we wont go down that path LOL)!

    But, for many years I have offered my views that there's really no difference from Moses going up the mountain, getting the commandments, seeing a "burning bush" (hmmm, what could that have been??), and a Contactee going out to an isolated spot and getting words of wisdom from an angelic-looking ET.

    Same with fairies - of course they dont exist. But, people saw them.

    British folklore is PACKED with such tales that contain staple ingredients of alien encounters today - missing time, reproduction and alien hybrids (having children with the "fairy queen," the "fairy changelings", or crude effigies of babies, as they were described), and altered states and disorientation, or as it was called in fairy eras being "pisky led."

    The image, the motif, call it whatever, changes as our cultural and folkloric beliefs change.

    And it changes to suit our perceptions, for one very important (but admittedly still unresolved) reason: it requires, needs, demands or wants interaction with us.

    And the best way for an ethereal, visionary-like intelligence to do that is via the exploitation of our subconscious beliefs, traditions, mythologies and even those bug-eyed little bastards of abduction lore.

    And with that said, I'm moving away from visionary stuff for the rest of tthe day to clean out the garage, drink some beer and watch the football (no, not American football, but what the uninitiated dare to call "soccer" LOL).

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Saturday, February 04, 2012  

  • "I know many disagree with me, but in my view the altered state realm(s) represent(s) the key to unlocking the truth behind what it is that interacts with us, how, and why."

    Nick, I agree with the substance of what you are saying, but I remain on the fence as to whether something external is interacting with us, or we are merely interacting with the vast parts of our brains that are normally off-limits to our rational, ego-based self-consciousness. Regarding the quotation from Contactees concerning Herbert Schirmer, since we have ample evidence of purely internal hynagogic/hallucinatory experiences, and virtually none of "intelligences that had the ability to influence those people particularly susceptible to hypnagogia; as Schirmer appears to have been", why make the leap at all? Are we not to some degree in danger of following our ancestors in ascribing to epilepsy an external, demonic cause, where an internal, physical one suffices?

    By Blogger Tristan Eldritch, at Saturday, February 04, 2012  

  • Tristan:

    You ask: "Are we not to some degree in danger of following our ancestors in ascribing to epilepsy an external, demonic cause, where an internal, physical one suffices?"

    The answer is Yes! I fully and freely admit it's a fraught area of research, and that the "internal vs external" issue is a critical one.

    Could such cases be purely internal, particularly ones like that of Bethurum, where there is a lot of suggestive data that Aura Rhanes turned up when he was looking to get out of his marriage, and was living in misery?


    And, indeed, an argument can be made that the fact that - for the most part - people dont see fairies today, but do see aliens, could be suggestive of an internally-created projection or "dream" of what's currently popular in cultural folklore etc.

    But... if there's a chance this is something external interacting with us via manipulation of visual and audible stimuli, then someone has to study this possibility/chance, which is what I do.

    But, either way, if the experience occurs in an altered state and, by definition, without any chance of having tangible "alien material" or a "souvenir" taken from "the ship," etc, then proof may never be forthcoming.

    That may be what has always thwarted us if these experiences are visionary (whether provoked by us or something else): how do you prove what happened in an altered state when everything was image based, rather than "nuts and bolts" based?

    I'm not sure we can. But it won't stop me trying to resolve the matter.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, February 05, 2012  

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