UFO Conjecture(s)

Monday, May 07, 2012

Roswell: A lack of debris and a lack of (almost) everything else

Flying saucers or UFOs have left no hard-core evidence to prove their existence or reality, despite contrived accounts that the phenomenon has crashed or been compromised on many occasions.

Roswell’s alleged crashed flying disk, even if scooped up by the United States Army, has not been placed in evidence by any UFO researcher or government official, ever.

The (in)famous Ramey/Marcel photos of foil scraps from 1947 are laughably singular as non-evidence of an interstellar craft or even a secret balloon array (Mogul or anything else).

The pieces of material scattered on a floor, being held by original participants in the Roswell tale, merely confirm, for skeptics and rational thinkers, that the Roswell event was a lot of nothing, blown out of proportion by late-to-the-story UFO researchers with a bend toward extraterrestrial visitations via flying disks.

The incipient Roswell “Dream Team” has its work cut out for it. The “team” has to come up with something tangible – held-in-hand debris from the crashed Roswell disk or a bona fide document, not just alluding to debris or a crash but actually detailing where the supposed remnants of the crashed disk are now.

Recollections of Roswell’s aging population who say they saw debris or alien bodies has little or no meaning to discerning observers of the ongoing UFO saga,

There are no photographs by professed witnesses of the debris, no diary accounts from the period (June/July 1947), no government documents that precisely delineate the collection of or transport of debris (or anything else) from the 1947 context, and nothing that will settle the messy debate about the Roswell incident.

Anthony Bragalia and other members of the Roswell “Dream Team” may have gathered new or refurbished circumstantial evidence, but nothing, so far, that nails down a flying disk crash, extraterrestrial or otherwise.

That’s how it is.



  • The 'dream team' claim to have found some confirmatory sightings of an object seen in the air, by at least 3 witnesses, to what (possibly) crashed on the ranch. However these are not new discoveries. They are all in the Randle/Schmitt books.

    I say 'possibly' above. I mean with virtually zero probability. What value would you give these supposed sightings as supporting evidence for what was found on the ranch?

    Any thoughts?

    By Blogger cda, at Monday, May 07, 2012  

  • Christopher:

    The confluence of sightings in the Roswell June/July time-frame doesn't detract from the possibility of a crashed flying disk; it enhances it.

    That is, if the alleged sightings are actual and can be confirmed.

    But they, like other Roswell elements, can't be.

    It's either witness testimony, long after the "fact" or hearsay evidence of a very shaky kind.

    The "Dream Team" has got to come up with, as I keep pressing, something tangible and bona fide....bona fide!

    There are juicy hints of something significant having happened near Roswell in 1947, but that's all that we have: hints.

    There is a deeply ingrained, almost theological, obsession with Roswell and the detritus that has been accumulated about it.

    Rudiak represents the most obsessionally compulsed of the team members, but he's spending so much time around the internet defending the Roswell ET orthodoxy that I can't imagine he's contributing much to new endeavors or discoveries as Randle, Bragalia, and the others are trying to find or uncover.

    But as you note at Randle's blog, the sightings of something in the skies over Roswell prove nothing and those sightings haven't been investigated to the point where one can say they traverse the sky in the direction of the alleged, ultimate crash area, or in the time period needed to substantiate a possible flying disk accident.

    Were the things seen by the people cited at Randle's blog flying north, west, east, up, or down?

    What? And when exactly as you queried Randle?

    Looking for certitude 65 years later, amidst all the "sh*t" that has been created or "discovered" about the Roswell incident is a task greater than the chores Hercules was subjected to.

    That said, I say let the boys nurture their folly or hobby.

    It keeps them out of the way for UFO research that might prove more interesting and meaningful to psychology, sociology, or even government/military stupidities.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, May 07, 2012  

  • N.B. Roswell can be evaluated as an ongoing case of mass hysteria (hallucinatory in essence).

    The etiology of the hysteria and why it continues to this day will be examined upcoming, with supporting papers (psychiatric and neurological).

    And the Rudiak responses factor in.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, May 07, 2012  

  • The Roswell advocates are tied hand and foot to the Disclosure Movement, whether this is praiseworthy, justified or an error in thinking is another matter.

    Both movements revolve around a matter of the U.S keeping extraterrestrial visitation a secret.

    Our society has evolved to the point were most are not so naive as to think this event would not be exploited in every possible imaginable manner.

    Most aerospace, and scientists both in and out of government as well as the defense industry would leap at the vast opportunities in the form of expenditures flowing their way in terms of funding if this visitation were so.

    So would the governmental agencies in terms of national defense systems, research etc.

    Keeping it a secret would be unprofitable in so many ways that one would have to be a idiot to keep this under one's hat.

    It would be a profound opportunity for intelligence agencies to exploit etc. ( which they have re: CIA disclosures of manipulating X craft sightings) with UFO smog.

    Roswell has now passed into folklore as did the Cold War.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, May 07, 2012  

  • Bruce: "...Both movements revolve around a matter of the U.S keeping extraterrestrial visitation a secret."

    Hypothetically, if ETs are reality, what has that gotten us, or what benefit towards our government entities?

    ETs are not financial adapt at handling global economies or giving advice that is helpful. If ETs are looking at our economic model for galactic stability, then I'm afraid that they're SOL.

    For all of their "interventions" to thwart our nuclear arsenals, that was a complete failure as weapon systems proliferated and a "Cold War" ensued for 60 plus years.

    As far as favorite media outlets, they appear to favor The National Enquirer versus NY Times et al.

    I submit, hypothetically, that water boarding has no appreciable effect on the ETs that we maybe holding in some CIA compound.

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Monday, May 07, 2012  

  • ....though I have yet to actually READ your blogpost on the Dream Team, the sheer funny smart-assery of the graphic compels me to to post this....

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Monday, May 07, 2012  

  • Tim
    I am not referring to ET as representative of any reality as we currently define it and so disclosure and secrecy are closely held belief systems as a pervasive fantasy.

    The fallacy of keeping such a thing a secret was my inference in regard to Roswell etc in terms of it well serving the self interests of exploitation.

    However, if ET existed and this was known, keeping this fact a secret would be counter to special interests receiving governmental largesse as well as to the government itself.

    I am speaking in a cynically pragmatic manner in terms of not keeping ET a secret would be very effectively underlining our means of justifying a nearly pathological and a shared fantasy of controlling events via unquestioned money justified for more funding the technological development of paranoia, more defense systems, more surveillance, etc.

    Socio-political control systems in the wars kept on balance sheets... I doubt that if ET existed and we had proof it would be kept a secret. It would be manipulated by fear, made better by proof even if there was a benign or ambiguous intent

    What is interesting is we do all this anyway without the benefit of an ET. It would be a great red herring to say, well there is a need beyond greed to justify existential threats.

    Listen to Hawking and some others..even SETI types..referring to imaginary threats to promote fear of the unknown when they are really inferring human behaviors arsing from a fantasy ET. Its pathetically transparent.

    ET is us, we are ET and the rest is projections beyond count of human nature, the good the bad and the ugly.

    ET does not exist except in ourselves at this point.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, May 07, 2012  

  • Bruce, I tend to agree with you. My last comment was meant more in a hypothetical sarcastic jest at the totality of the UFO/ET phenomena.

    I might further add hypothetically, as a former Air Force Officer, that "alien" technology (either given to us/reversed engineered) tends to be self limited due to aircraft/missile systems evolving as systems rapidly become technologically obsolete.

    What ever one wants to claim that was found at Roswell, I never saw any hint of it in any of our weapons systems. Case in point, the first Minuteman ICBM missile guidance systems consisted of wired circuit cards, not printed.

    We must of missed the "alien" owner's manual in the Roswell debris field.

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Tuesday, May 08, 2012  

  • ET is the mirror in other words, of ourselves. It is the vampire of the space age.

    It's important to stress - re the Roswell nonsense - that by blathering on about it, we are ignoring all the real meat in ufology. There are plenty of fascinating cases, and related that are ignored and Roswell Disneyland takes its place. And there is the rub. The real meat in ufology defies an ET nuts and bolts approach and opens a Pandora's Box.. And the Roswell believers don't want to know that, they want to focus on Roswell in order to ignore the High Strangeness at the heart of ufology. This is not conscious or deliberate, it is a subconscious defense mechanism. They want ufology on their own terms, and those terms are pulp science fiction. They want the burger without the beef, just the stale bun and that's what they've got.

    The only interest the Roswell believers have to serious ufologists is from a psychological/sociological perspective. That's it. What are they running from? And by responding to them knee-jerk as Roswell skeptics tend to do, we are getting caught in the same trap. That is we are also focusing too much on Roswell on the Roswell believers' terms, and getting all smug about how right we are and wrong they are. That's true enough, but so? By playing this game, we are getting sidetracked and distracted from the fundamentals of ufology, and in the process ourselves.

    And there again is the rub, getting to the heart of ufology means getting to who we are as a society and ourselves, and self-knowledge does not only remain a taboo, it is as taboo as it has ever been.

    By Blogger Lawrence, at Tuesday, May 08, 2012  

  • Lawrence:

    You are echoing the writings of the authors Ziegler and Saler in the 1997 book (with Charles Moore) on the case.

    In it one of these two shows how Roswell has become an "embattled truth", in which the ETHers have to defend their 'truth' at all costs and by all possible means.

    This is exactly what will ensue with the dream team's research and ultimate conclusions. There is no alternative; There is only one possible conclusion they can come to, unless they wish to have rotten eggs thrown at them by those other ETHers (zillions of them) on the outside.

    By Blogger cda, at Tuesday, May 08, 2012  

  • Rich wrote: "The etiology of the hysteria and why it continues to this day will be examined upcoming, with supporting papers (psychiatric and neurological)."

    Don't forget to cover the Hochstetter Syndrome. You've got plenty of material here.



    By Blogger Don, at Tuesday, May 08, 2012  

  • Thanks, Don...

    I have the Hochstetter Syndrome PDF.

    I'd like to approach the matter from outside the UFO context, however.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, May 08, 2012  

  • Well, ok. Just don't misplace your sense of humor.



    By Blogger Don, at Tuesday, May 08, 2012  

  • Attempting to distinguish Roswell believers' nonsense from "serious" believers' nonsense, Lawrence employs the fallacious rhetorical device known as Special pleading.

    He writes:
    "...the real meat in ufology. There are plenty of fascinating cases...."

    First, it's the fairy-tale factor of ufoolery: There are great "UFO" cases--long ago and far away--they just can't be produced for scientific inspection. So they're exactly like the fairy tales that compose the Roswell myth. And all these fairy tales reside within the subculture of ufoolery.

    "The real meat in ufology...." "...the High Strangeness at the heart of ufology."

    So just where is this "red meat" and "high strangeness?" Where is "the heart of ufology?" How is it that self-styled "serious ufologists" presume to know things that real-world science does not?

    It's a fact in the world, Lawrence, that all the pseudoscience of ufoolery has on offer is a catalogue of innumerable, insubstantial, mostly unverifiable and utterly inconsequential anecdotes. And there's not even one of these fairy tales that hasn't been repeatedly and thoroughly debunked. So where is the "meat," the purported "strangeness" and the "heart of ufology" since the basis for your false belief is just as hollow and as completely inconsequential as belief in the Roswell myth.

    "and those terms are pulp science fiction."

    What part of the flying-saucer myth and "UFO" collective delusion isn't derived from pulp fiction? Every bit of the modern "UFO" subculture cosmic-conspiracy mythology has its origin in pulp science-fiction.

    "Roswell believers have to serious ufologists"

    As if there's one bit of difference between one fantasy-prone Believer in the "UFO" delusion and any other. Believing is seeing. Without belief in the delusion, there are no "UFOs" of any kind.

    "...the fundamentals of ufology,"

    The fundamentals of the pseudoscience ufoolery are the false belief that a mere act of failure to identify an ambiguous visual stimulus creates an extraordinary unknown, and that the endless catalogue of these insubstantial, inconsequential narratives represents some real phenomenon.

    "...getting to the heart of ufology means getting to who we are as a society and ourselves, and self-knowledge does not only remain a taboo, it is as taboo as it has ever been."

    What utter nonsense, Lawrence. Ufoolery is a ridiculous, irrational pseudoscience based in a juvenile science-fiction "Hidden World" cosmic-conspiracy fantasy pretending to be real, It's a silly cargo-cult emulation of real-world science that studiously avoids the scientific method and ignores the facts of the world. It has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge or anything real.

    ufoolery is history already!

    By Blogger zoamchomsky, at Tuesday, May 08, 2012  

  • What a delicious irony that this group calls itself 'The Dream Team'. After all, what is the Roswell event other than the persistent dream of some aging adolescents?

    By Blogger purrlgurrl, at Tuesday, May 08, 2012  

  • Oh lookee zoamchomsky has spoken. I am so impressed and in awe of your logic and reasoning, your argument from personal authority. Did you learn that from Noam C himself or the Vatican or any other Church one cares to mention?

    By Blogger Lawrence, at Wednesday, May 09, 2012  

  • Lawrence...

    You have to overlook Zoam....he's a bit rabid, and a little nutty.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, May 09, 2012  

  • The demarcation between the alleged Roswell event and the phenomenon itself has become a game of unfounded partisanship. At the same time the entire exercise has melded the two into one.
    There is more than enough reasonable doubt between an extraterrestrial explanation and other theories due to this foray into social-political revisionism. All of this as I have said is within the context of a long ago Cold War.
    One could say we have been subjected to a phased strategy of psychological warfare, if Jose is correct in his leanings that distortion softens our logic into a shambles, pushing us into inward causes while misdirecting our attention from the environment.
    However, we see this is not necessary. Distortion is ours to manipulate, and Roswell is a wedge that has polarized one half baked cake against another as opposing belief systems that over rides the analysis of evidence.
    The well has become so polluted that an arms length consideration of it is more impossible than not and has bias projection as it's ally that is in of itself, a lens of distortion.
    Roswell and those who attended it's birth effectively ran the train off the track.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, May 09, 2012  

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