UFO Conjecture(s)

Friday, June 01, 2012

UFO UpDates tries to make Carrion into carrion

Former MUFON Director and current heterodox ufologist is being lacerated at UFO Updates, by the UFO old-guard (the UFO geezers) and ET die-hards.

Mr. Carrion had the temerity to show up inside UpDates with his anti-Roswell, anti-Arnold, and anti-everything else UFO stance.

(Smart guys, like Brit David Clarke, eschew UpDates, where the most rabid UFO mavens congregate to laud one-another and berate those who step outside the UFO orthodoxy.)

Jerome Clark, the aging UFO compiler who knows he’s squandered his innate brilliance on a quixotic phenomenon, isn’t necessarily nasty, but he is condescending; whereas the stupefacient Don Ledger adds his usual one and half cent vituperation to the besmogged atmosphere.

David Rudiak weighs in, of course, as he doesn’t seem able to work on new items for the Roswell Dream Team, which he is a member of, in name only it seems.

(Mr. Rudiak can’t handle new UFO material, as the old stuff has an obsessional hold on him.)

Stanton Friedman has shown up, as usual, to defend his ideas and work, which continues errantly and unabated, even though Mr. Friedman has got to be older than Methuselah but still going strong, defending the ET view with all the energy of a much younger UFO enthusiast.

Our friend Don Ecsedy has added valuable insights and information but that bounty is often overlooked by the heated and venomous List gang.

Mr. Carrion’s views intrigue, but the UFO stalwarts will have none of that. Mr. Carrion has to be eviscerated before his hypotheses take hold of the younger UFO crowd thus eliminating the self-adulating fervor of the UFO has-beens.

We suggest that Mr. Carrion run – as fast as he can – from the vampiric UpDate crowd before they eclipse his unorthodox views with their overwhelming load of bullshit.



  • It's been ages since I've followed EBK's List so closely. So far, it's been a little bemusing and especially so as I'm Swiss on Roswell.

    I've enjoyed reading James Carrion's blog and his thoughts on some aspects of ufology. He's taking a different approach and one worth paying attention to. Doesn't mean he's right, but has anyone else nailed Roswell yet? Has anyone else stuck their flag on the hill and conquered the mystery?

    Not yet and probably not soon either.

    For such reasons, why not hear him out before dismissing his ideas? Give him a chance.

    At the same time, he could have built a more coherent hypothesis before putting the basic idea out there.

    It seems like Roswell is one of the tar-babies of ufology.

    By Blogger Kandinsky, at Friday, June 01, 2012  

  • I agree that James Carrion is asking for trouble, and he'll get it too.

    But you do not need to be an ET promoter to see that Carrion has a very weak case. He focuses on three early UFO cases and tries to link them all to his own conspiracy ideas, whereas in reality they are all quite different and unconnected. He is looking for links and seizes on anything and everything that suggests this.

    I will stick my neck out here and say that I consider the white pelicans explanation for the Arnold sighting preferable to Carrion's proposed 'secret to fool the Russians' answer. Also, why does Carrion bring in this rather obscure secret underwater project that took place in New Zealand into the equation?

    It just does not fit. That is why he is getting plenty of stick. In my view, as a mainly skeptical onlooker, he deserves it.

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, June 01, 2012  

  • Yes, Christopher:

    He brought this on himself. but...

    The venomous attacks are a bit much, as is the case with most UpDates rejoinders.

    Kathy Kasten gets her share of opprobium, and it's always vicious, especially from Ledger.

    There are no gentlemen at the "List" that's for sure.

    The geezers act like attack-dogs.

    Carrion is a fool to stay in the arena.

    David Clarke got out, and was wise to do so.

    And a number of others have stopped visiting the List also, as you know.

    (Also, what kind of name is Errol Bruce-Knapp? A witness protection concoction or something else?)


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, June 01, 2012  

  • ...any talk of carrion reminds this writer of the 'laser precision cuts' "found" on cattle mutilations back in the 1980s...but then, a girl can be forgiven her mistakes...

    ...as we all learned, bi and bi, from 'Schlock' Vallee's self-published diary....

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Friday, June 01, 2012  

  • How long can the self immolation of the self appointed "experts" persist when it comes to a dead end topic without the subject in the room?
    Answer: Even when the air has been sucked out of the room and there's no fuel left for the fire. What is the point of a positivist theological debate over groundless
    Answer: They have stolen the fire out of the subject and made themselves the subject when they have no clothes to be admired for.

    Most who has spent time researching the actual subject realizes ( if they have any self awareness to muster) positivist poses are a bald joke without a punchline, whose circularity is like a plane that's been in a holding pattern for decades. Strong irretrievable opinions have made fools of the lot because it is
    a girlish gossip column, a inbred debating society of outliers, a totem pole of cartoon characters.
    Fighting over dust.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Saturday, June 02, 2012  

  • CDA wrote: "He focuses on three early UFO cases and tries to link them all to his own conspiracy ideas, whereas in reality they are all quite different and unconnected. He is looking for links and seizes on anything and everything that suggests this."

    He'll find them, too -- logical, or circumstantial, links, but I think no actual ones. If some group in the AF was building a propaganda operation against the Soviets using the Seal project to bootstrap it, it didn't get very far. If the flying saucer wave was part of the plan, it came way too early. The ground hadn't been seeded yet for the press or the Soviets to make the logical or circumstantial connections the operation would want them to make. The allusion to something in the air as part of the secret super weapon project had barely been broached when the wave hit and washed, not only the Seal-based story, but perhaps all of the stories and discussion of advanced technologies in the press that had been on-going since General Arnold's report in November, 1945 -- well, that's anecdotal, just my sense of it from reading the newspapers and magazines of the era.

    I believe the flying saucer wave of 1947 was absolutely unexpected.

    The cases seem unconnected because of one thing, the inclusion of Roswell -- and the exclusion of cases more connected to the other two, which are connected. I'd just forget about Roswell, and be led to wherever the research leads.

    "Also, why does Carrion bring in this rather obscure secret underwater project that took place in New Zealand into the equation?"

    The previous year, 1946, the secret super weapon more devastating than the atom bomb was "germ warfare".

    As I understand Carrion's thesis, Seal was convenient. It was an ideal cover story because it was true. It was secret and it was a weapon, or kind of a weapon. Sort of. And there were real, credible people, first hand people who were willing to say so. The idea was to take these allusions and transform them into an aerospace weapons project, seed them in the press and wait for Winchell or Pearson to comment and thus get the attention of the Soviets (okay, "Winchell or Pearson" is me, not Carrion).

    But that doesn't happen. It doesn't get that far. The Wave broke over it and washed it all away.



    By Blogger Don, at Saturday, June 02, 2012  

  • Unfortunately, whatever the truth of Carrion's inglorious departure from MUFON (an organization I don't much admire), his feelings about that falling out seem to underlie all his UFO hypotheses at this point. He now appears to be motivated by the intention of striking a killing blow to Ufology in retaliation. Honestly, I don't see objectivity coming from any quarter in this dogfight.

    By Blogger purrlgurrl, at Sunday, June 03, 2012  

  • PG:

    Maybe a "killing blow" to Ufology is for the good.

    Ufology is a zombie that eats its own as Jerry Clark admitted at UpDates recently.

    (For once he is right.)

    Objectivity about UFOs went out the window many years ago.

    An open, imaginative approach to UFOs is no longer possible; certain UFO camps are so entrenched in their biased mind-sets that anything which impinges on that mind-set is seen as the devil incarnate (or James Carrion) nowadays.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, June 03, 2012  

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