UFO Conjecture(s)

Thursday, June 28, 2012

Why ufologists are NOT taken seriously


Here are some recent statements of Jerome Clark and Don Ledger at UFO UpDates.

From Clark:

"I don't pretend to be privy to what the gummint knows..."

"Of course it gives our ideas so much more credibility if we link those who threaten us to the gummint than to the real source, the mentally ill and the sociopathic in the population."

From Ledger:

"I think you have a lot to learn before you can claim to broaden anyone else's research in the UFO field, KK. You really do run off, hell west and crooked. Now you are attempting to weave Egyptian cotton out of bat-crap."

Do these two fellows think cutesy-poo words like "gummint" or "bat-crap" endears them to intellectuals, the media, or science?

Both men are smart guys. That they try to be cute only demeans their message(s), and their credibility.

They make UFO study look like an enterprise for goof-balls.

It's saddening to see how both men have devolved into blithering spokespersons for the UFO
community.

RR

25 Comments:

  • LOL! I can only take to browsing UFO Updates List about 2-3 times a month. The interplay between the regular posters reminds me of my small town coffee shop , with mostly male regular customers, that have little of importance to discuss, except to chew the latest gossip and get off what they think are zingers to each other. ;-)

    ~ Susan

    By Blogger Brownie, at Thursday, June 28, 2012  

  • Susan...

    The once important and valuable UFO UpDates has slipped into a swamp of effluvia that sickens serious UFO followers.

    That Clark has become, seemingly, senile, is sad.

    Ledger is just a jerk, generally; a mysogynist as indicated by his vile remarks to and about Kathy Kasten.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, June 28, 2012  

  • RR - Yes, the list was great years ago -- it was the 'go to' for generally reliable reports and thoughtful commentaries and opinions. But it has devolved.

    I most definitely noticed the misogyny from Ledger as well as Clark and a few other men there. How Kathy Kasten puts up with it, is a testament to her personal strength.

    The remarks Clark and some other men made to Carol Rainy and 'Emma Woods' last year (or thereabouts), until both women were banned if I'm not mistaken, were appalling. [And, I am not a 100% knee-jerk backer of either woman - there are questions neither have answered as they press forward in their online campaigns against Hopkins and Jacobs...but that's going off into another subject.]

    ~ Susan

    By Blogger Brownie, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • Yes, indeed, Susan...

    Clark, who is now divorced (I wonder why?) and Ledger have a condescending view of women that they need to express vibrantly.

    No gentlemen there.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • Forums are for casual chat.

    Yet, nobody messes with Cathy Reason.

    "No gentlemen there."

    Oh, surely you meant 'gentlepersons'.


    To want to endear oneself to intellectuals, the media, or science is sick.

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • No, Don...

    There are gentlepersons (some women) in situ but no gentlemen.

    One can buck intellectuals, the media, and/or science but their efforts will be futile, if one follows the dictates of Machiavelli and others who know where the "power" lies.

    One has to play the "game" to be heard, and since those mentioned control the game, one has to play by (or pretend to) by their rules.

    You are being a rebel, and maybe that's why you flounder in the ufological sea, where you are preaching to the deaf, dumb, and blind.

    (And yes, Cathy Reason is not touched by the male louts at UpDates; they fear her and her "intellectualism.")

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • Took me awhile to figure out that "gummint" means government.

    I've looked at the site once or twice and the stuff just seems like e-mails I get at work where I'm in a long list of CCs and I don't know why I'm getting the e-mail or what I'm supposed to do with the info I've just been sent that's completely irrelevant to me.

    The whole enterprise seems like a holdover of late 1970s technology. The posters there seem stuck in a time warp, in more ways than one.

    By Blogger purrlgurrl, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • "One has to play the "game" to be heard, and since those mentioned control the game, one has to play by (or pretend to) by their rules."

    By "they", you mean Clark and Ledger? And,"heard" by who?

    I don't think I'm a rebel. I'm just outside of ufology. I have no history in it. Sometimes I innocently get in the middle of an old family squabble I know nothing about. Like I said, you marry the whole family.

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • The camera slowly rolls down the corridor of the exclusive address that is home to the Explorers Club well lined with hand rubbed mahogany cabinetry, the floors tiled in highly polished marble, past the heavy oak doors that swing open to reveal the old gentlemen in their red velvet smoking jackets, cigars in hand holding their snifters of aged brandy before a roaring fireplace. One fellow snips off the end of another fine smoke and gestures animatedly to his fellows.
    "Now dad gummit, get them taters outta yor ears or eat roadkill, I aint a kidden there Jerry, you got a hitch in yor gettalong.."
    And so it goes..

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • (EBN and his little minions have made UFO Updates into a prime example of social media garbage, since his failed attempt to get people to PAY HIM for access.)

    I think you are just being mean to Jerry Clark - his efforts over 40 some years have contributed much to thought and discussion about UFOs.

    He is human, and made some mistakes. Who hasn't.

    ...now if you could please explain just who this Ledger guy is....

    By Blogger TheNurse, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • Hahahahaha Bruce, exactly....I mean metaphorically.

    PG, you are always so right.

    Don, not Clark or Ledger but the BIGGIES who control information.

    We have to cater to them, sycophantically perhaps, to get our obtuse information out to the hoi polloi.

    Clark and Ledger make it more difficult by resorting to immature phrases and made-up words.

    They cause the controllers of information to place all messages, good and bad, in the fringe basket because of nonsense like that quoted in my post.

    "Gummint" indeed -- childish!

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • TN:

    Ledger is a guy who flies a plane and has tried to make hay with the Shag Harbor incident.

    He hates women it seems, and his postings at UpDates are almost illiterate.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • "They cause the controllers of information to place all messages, good and bad, in the fringe basket because of nonsense like that quoted in my post."

    That may be...whoever the controllers are. However, I think it due to the fact that all of ufology is "fringe".

    Why does it matter? I guess it matters within the ideology of ufology -- of "truth-seeking" behaviors and courageously coming forward etc. No doubt "new ideas" are being suppressed and the bored teenagers are getting restless.

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • Don...

    The real problem is that the old guard is acting silly, a kind of senile dementia, causing them to post nonsense words and ideas with goofy rebuttals.

    That takes ufology, which has always been inherently iffy, down even further into the maelstrom of loony.

    I don't think you see the mental malaise and psychopathology that afflicts the UFO topic, since you keep saying you are not really a part of it....a kind of denial maybe.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • Rich, do you believe in something akin to a "cosmic watergate"?

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • No, Don I do not!

    I hate the term. It's stupid.

    Another one of those senile references that diminishes the UFO phenomenon by its juvenile patina.

    Stan Friedman should be slapped for coming up with the sobriquet.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Blogger Brownie, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • Rich, I meant "something akin to", not necessarily Friedman's. I'm referring to the idea that there as a global conspiracy to cover-up the existence of ET -- whether it is a single saucer crash or full blown space opera -- and all the layers of cover-ups of cover-ups of the existence of ET; that governments and militaries and the press and scientists and corporations conspire to keep us in ignorance of it.

    If I didn't know better, I'd think it all began as "counter-culture" in 1968. But I know the commonplace anti-establishment and paranoid sentiment of ufo-enthusiasts was there from the beginning in Palmer, Scully, and Keyhoe, as well as the Southern California fortune-tellers, and the contrarian Forteans, in the 1940s and 50s.

    I think it has hardly anything to do with ufo research, but a lot to do with expressing a belief system or making a lifestyle choice. And the skeptics are part of it, too, having no other reason for their evangelism on UFO forums.

    The antique metaphors and analogies of quasi-religious psychological ufology don't interest me.

    I like to think what I do is historical research with a special interest in the US post-WWII, not ufology. The saucers are part of that history and involve the usual subjects of history: governments and militaries, and science, and business. Who knows, maybe I'll find a crashed saucer. What use is ufology? What tools and techniques does it bring to historical research that were lacking?


    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • You've confused Don Ledger with Don Ecker, at least insofar as The Paracast, UFO Magazine, and Dark Matters Radio goes - all of those things are Ecker.

    Ledger is a Nova Scotian who worked for years in the Legislative Assembly media division, has written extensively about UFOs (not just Shag Harbour, although he's best known for that), is a careful and diligent researcher who has interviewed a lot more people than anyone commenting here, and who is about as far from a misogynist as you can get. He's a stand up guy, and I'm proud to call him a friend.

    PK

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • Thanks, Don....

    Inserting UFOs into the historical perspective is gutsy, and should make historians cringe.

    And no, I do not see a vast conspiracy covering up UFO information and/or its reality.

    Surely, some sub-intelligence groups may be operating in the way you suggest, but they'd be rogue outfits, untethered to legitimate intelligence agencies: Black, black operations.

    Paul,

    Thanks for the Ledger/Ecker clarification.

    You like Ledger. I don't.

    His scourging of Kathy Kasten, whom one of our contributors thinks is ditsy, as does Ledger, if I'm reading his comments to and about her correctly, is not gentlemanly.

    He's a brusque bastard.

    And interviewing lots of people doesn't make one a bona fide investigator or anything else with credibility or cachet.

    Your friends don't have to be my friends, and I wouldn't impose my affection for certain people upon you or anyone else.

    But I admire your defense of Ledger.

    It's what some of you guys in the UFO clique do: defend your buddies no matter how stinky we think they may be.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, June 29, 2012  

  • Paul Kimball to me: "You've confused Don Ledger with Don Ecker, at least insofar as The Paracast, UFO Magazine, and Dark Matters Radio goes - all of those things are Ecker." - - -

    My apologies! Thankyou for the correction.

    RR, Please delete my post where I've mistaken Don Ecker with Don Ledger. I don't want to add any further confusion to an already confusing subject. Again, I'm sorry everyone!

    ~ Susan

    By Blogger Brownie, at Saturday, June 30, 2012  

  • Ufology: The speculative consideration of, and by, all people/places/things that are perceived as UFO relevant.

    Clique: A case of ego driven pot calls kettle black. A misguided survival instinct inverted as a bolstered notion. A defense mechanism.

    UFO: A most fascinating unknown comprised in whole by human perception as related to a multifaceted phenomena. A gateway to endless speculative considerations.

    By Blogger Jeff Davis, at Saturday, June 30, 2012  

  • "Surely, some sub-intelligence groups may be operating in the way you suggest, but they'd be rogue outfits, untethered to legitimate intelligence agencies: Black, black operations."

    The major organizations were involved. The CIC investigation of civilians was not kosher. There were cover-ups, including Roswell and some others. Phones were tapped, mail was opened, the Espionage Act was invoked. UFO enthusiasts and some ufologists assume it was all related to some variant of "cosmic watergate". No other reason occurs to them. The matter is so all-consuming that in their writing you would not know anything else was happening in the world; there is no non-ufological historical context acknowledged.

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Saturday, June 30, 2012  

  • Susan,

    It was an understandable, minor mistake.

    Post deleted.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, June 30, 2012  

  • Thankyou RR! ~ Susan

    By Blogger Brownie, at Saturday, June 30, 2012  

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