UFO Conjecture(s)

Thursday, February 14, 2013

Nick Redfern: The missing Roswell files

Nick Redfern, in an article for Mysterious Universe, clarifies information about the documentation missing in the Roswell time-frame -- two years before and two years after, also:

http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2013/02/missing-files-and-roswell/

39 Comments:

  • OK, so the RAAF records are missing for 1945-1949. But the GAO search went much further than this. It covered many agencies and government departments. None turned up a single document relevant to the Roswell crash (whatever it was), apart from the two brief teletypes that were already public knowledge.

    Pretty conclusive evidence that nothing exists or ever did. It is inconceivable that ALL such records (of which there would have been literally tons of material on such an important matter) were destroyed.

    So where are they, apart from in certain people's minds?

    By Blogger cda, at Thursday, February 14, 2013  

  • Christopher...

    While your observation makes sense, I can assure you that some Roswell information -- new evidence -- has not seen the light of day, and no one (until recently) knew of its existence.

    Official documentation can be hidden by any number of ploys.

    For instance, if you Google Roswell, you'll be sent to the general sites and venues that everyone finds.

    But add one unique parameter to your Roswell Google search -- something generally not known or obscure -- and you'll get a slew of material that is rare on not found in the general UFO community.

    Should I give you a precise example?

    Not here, but privately?

    You will be astounded by how much you and the rest of us do not know about Roswell. much of it inside the coffers of the U.S. Navy. (as I've proselytized for some time now).

    The GAO is not god-like and it's search for Roswell documents was almost half-hearted, or partially inept, the searchers having no special insights to the 1947 episode, preventing them from doing a search which would get them inside the inner sanctums of bureaucracies where Roswell detritus might reside.

    Your overview is not unlike that of the GAO when it did its search -- weak and self-fulfilling.

    That virtually nothing was found about Roswell almost proves that the material was absconded, as the public record shows that there were back-and-forths about the incident at the highest levels of government: the FBI, the military, the AEC, and surely Truman's White House.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, February 14, 2013  

  • R-squared:

    ...very insightful; there may be hope for you yet, guy!

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Thursday, February 14, 2013  

  • Thanks for the imprimatur, KP.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, February 14, 2013  

  • ....not so much an imprimatur, R-squared, as the 1st Amendment was designed to support you thusly....


    ....more a sincere pat on the head, dude....

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Thursday, February 14, 2013  

  • A pat's as good as an "official approval."

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, February 14, 2013  

  • STOP THE(digital)PRESS for a supersincere endorsement of a DREAM TEAM ORIGINAL BACKBONE-

    http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1997/oct/d13-002.shtml

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Thursday, February 14, 2013  

  • Some things go into writing and some things don't and, not infrequently, what goes into writing is oblique at best.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Thursday, February 14, 2013  

  • RR:

    Please make your documentary information public - why should I be so honored as to receive it but nobody else?

    You can certainly find other docs on Roswell if you widen the search, e.g. MAJESTIC will yield quite a bit. I do not know what you think is achieved by this. After all, the word 'Roswell' is now so prevalent in the ufological scene that it can be found in virtually any UFO blog, debate/discussion group, or even in official records post-1994.

    Obviously you can find it aplenty in USAF records (especially since 1995) because of the gigantic AF Report of that year and its follow-up two years later.

    The sort of thing I am talking about are GENUINE official records from 1947, and GENUINE mention of the discovery of an ET craft and alien bodies, together with photos, actual hardware, etc.

    Yes, by all means give me that little extra parameter that blows the lid off the case, but make it public, please. I am nobody special. IF related to ETs, then the entire scientific world needs to know.

    So what is it?

    Or am I being a bit provocative?

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • Christopher...

    You're always provocative.

    You are a brilliant guy. I suspect you can wheedle a Google parameter out of your brain that will open a Roswell door or site you and others never knew existed.

    I suggest, for a start, to go to NASA's site and look at the archives for 1947.

    You'll find, in the archives, material that few, if any, have seen, about Roswell.

    For us to put our search finds online here would be silly, as we have a few visitors who love to purloin our stuff and place it on their sites or in their blogs as if they've found it or created it, without attribution of course.

    UFO buffs are, generally, a sleazy lot, as you well know.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • cda: " But the GAO search went much further than this. It covered many agencies and government departments. None turned up a single document relevant to the Roswell crash..."

    If the GAO didn't ask, they didn't tell.

    So, what do you think the odds are in 1947 that the AF referred to anything as "The Roswell Incident", 'Roswell' anything?

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • A very good point, Don...

    Since the "incident" didn't happen in Roswell or even very close to that town, why would any reference be made to it in 1947 documents?

    The Roswell hype came after 1978.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • Rich, that's what was so funny about Chase Brandon's box being labeled 'Roswell'.

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • Exactly, Don...

    The 1947 event had no connection to Roswell except for the media accounts.

    Official references would not have mentioned Roswell as it was outside the "playing field."

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • I am fairly certain, as the debris was first taken to Roswell Air Base and the newspaper reports mentioned Roswell as the relevant town, that any official documents at the time would have referred to it as the Roswell UFO.

    This isn't certain, but surely it would have had some prominence in the case. The only alternative is Corona, which was the nearest town but not the one where the stuff was taken.

    I do agree, however, that the term "Roswell Incident" would not have been used. It only became an 'incident' because Moore or Berlitz (or maybe Friedman) decided on this.

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • Rich:

    Re: "The 1947 event had no connection to Roswell except for the media accounts."

    I did a TV shoot for Nat Geo about 2 years ago at the Foster Ranch, and I was amazed how long the drive was from the hotel in Roswell where we were staying to the actual crash site on the ranch - something like an hour and a half.


    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • Our friend CDA has a fixation on Roswell, the name of the town, I think. Nick.

    He, and others, don't realize that the site of the event would have been described by other parameters, rather than a town's name -- Roswell or Corona.

    This is part of the problem when it comes time to reconstruct what happened and where.

    Only Don Ecsedy gets it -- besides you, me, and Tony Bragalia.

    The Roswell meme is firmly ingrained in some minds, obviously.

    (Oh, by the way, the Foster ranch wasn't the scene of the event; it was the place where some balloon debris was found.)

    RR


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • Rich: "Our friend CDA has a fixation on Roswell, the name of the town, I think."

    My take on the skeptics is that they are only interested in debunking the Roswell UFO advocates. In other words, they are 'reactive', rather than 'proactive'. Since most Roswell UFO advocates have a "fixation" on 'Roswell', so must the Roswell skeptics. Tim Printy's Roswell Sunlite issue last year, is evidence of the reactivity.

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • You are playing with words, Rich&Don..

    How do you want we call "the event" now? Paris? Champagne? The mineralogists event? What the DreamTeam is investigating?

    Propose a name if you mocke the Skeptics about it, if you are so cleaver and not happy with the name...

    Anyone knows what we are talking about when naming "Roswell" (at least in ufology). That's an "etiquette", a morphem sharing/shared by Language and the meaning is easy understood. That's all.

    Tim Printy's Roswell Sunlite issue last year, is evidence of the reactivity

    That's stupid too. The experiment in Sunlite with Balloon envelop is "pro-active", I mean an experiment to attempt to replicate what's happened to such envelop after days/weeks. Tsss...

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • PS:
    What do you wait Rich to eliminate "Roswell" in all the titles in your blog?

    As I guess you will never use "Roswell" when publishing about "Roswell"...

    I Wait&See ;)

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • So four of the gang 'get it', i.e. RR, Don, Nick and Tony Bragalia. The rest of us do not 'get it'.

    You make it sound like quantum theory or general relativity in the early days. Only a few 'get it', the rest of us poor souls just cannot grasp it.

    Question: on names, can you suggest why the term 'Majestic' was chosen for the MJ-12 and related stuff? 'Majestic 12' (without the hyphen) is a typeface that was once used on typewriters, and still is used, I believe, as the name of a font.

    But I don't really understand it, any more than I do the proof of the prime number theorem !

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • Gilles and CDA...

    What we're saying and all that we're saying is that the "incident" that allegedly happened near -- near --Roswell wouldn't show up in documents, necessarily as Roswell located.

    Documents -- in 1947! -- wouldn't refer to the incident as Roswell oriented.

    The event didn't happen in Roswell and had nothing to do with Roswell.

    You fellows are so thin-skinned that suggesting why the GAO search wasn't able to locate documents gets your knickers in a knot.

    Don suggests, and I agree with him, and Nick allows, that the supposed crash site or whatever it was that occurred wouldn't show up in paperwork as Roswell located.

    Looking for The Roswell Incident leads one away from the event -- and may have stifled the GAO search because no one cared or put forth an effort to discern if something odd happened, in 1947, in a desert of New Mexico -- near Roswell but not in it.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • Rich, you are always pointing some people are "focalized" on the Roswell incident. did you face on the mirror, yourself?

    Please, re-read your blog's entries this year, and the previous... And count how much your blog is focalized on "Roswell"...

    But that's the others who are making a "fixation" !!!!

    Loling, sincerly...

    For weeks now, you are playing with a stupid suspens regarding this Myth (aka new things will be revealed), but it is the Skeptics which have a pb and are obsessionnal fixed/focused on Roswell.

    You are serious, or...??

    It is you, at first, with many and many entries regarding Roswell and who is "feeding the Chimera", not the few skeptics writing in your blog.

    OK?

    Dont inverse who is making a fixation to "Roswell" when you are the first, here in your blog...

    Merci.

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • I wrote: Tim Printy's Roswell Sunlite issue last year, is evidence of the reactivity

    Gilles: "That's stupid too. The experiment in Sunlite with Balloon envelop is "pro-active", I mean an experiment to attempt to replicate what's happened to such envelop after days/weeks. Tsss..."

    Roswell UFO advocates did the same, David Rudiak, at least. And it was in reaction to his opinion about the rate of decay of balloon neoprene that got you all going.

    It is a worthless experiment, a waste of time, because no one has any evidence that damn balloon on Ramey's office floor was the "disc" Brazel was supposed to have found. Although, I am sure enough "witness testimony" can be kludged together to support such a claim. And if an advocate has kludged up such a thing in support of their claim that it wasn't from the Foster Ranch, that the skeptics will react with their fave witnesses testifying that it was from there.

    It was a stupid experiment.

    So, "Tsss!" to you, too, Gilles

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • Geez Gilles....

    You're a smart guy, but you don't get it this time.

    I have to use "Roswell" as a topic or topic sentence as that's the frame of reference for us in 2013.

    But that wasn't the frame of reference in 1947.

    The "event" would have been better labeled The New Mexico Incident, but after 1978 the event was tagged The Roswell Incident and I have to use that so people know what I'm talking about.

    If I referred to The New Mexico Incident, Aztec might be inferred.

    Roswell is the meme....now.

    It wasn't in 1947.

    You're just being obtuse to irritate Don, me, Nick, and Bragalia.....a Rudiak technique.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • If I irritate you, Rich, the good thinkers, forget me.

    Hoo and Don, "tsss" again : playing the man between the wooowooland ufololists & the skeptics, is a role playing we have here too in France, by... Ufologists.
    Easy and "déjà-vu", imho, concerning your role-play...

    Toward an xth version of the Roswell myth, I salute you.

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • Gilles....

    You're too sensitive, but that's your French/romantic nature I think.

    I love being irritated. It's my Scottish nature.

    And don't be too hard on Don. He just wants to set the Roswell record straight.

    He's not a believer or skeptic, per se....he's agnostic about Roswell.

    Yes, Roswell is a myth, but once upon a time (1947) it wasn't.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • CDA wrote:

    Question: on names, can you suggest why the term 'Majestic' was chosen for the MJ-12 and related stuff?

    Well, if you know that UFOs are not real, then obviously none of them have ever crashed and the terms Majestic and MJ-12 do not refer to any real UFO back-engineering effort.

    On the other hand, if some UFOs are real and 1 or 2 of them crashed in New Mexico, probably the best analogy for how that discovery might have been handled by the US government in 1947 would be how they handled the sudden discovery in 1939 that superheavy elements like Uranium could undergo Neutron-mediated fission. They would spool up a clandestine activity to understand how they worked and to exploit that knowledge for the obvious national security advantage it would confer upon whoever figured it out first. In either case, they would grab the absolute best minds on the planet that could survive a background investigation, isolate them in state-of-the-art research and development facilities, gave them as much money as they could use, and impose the tightest security anyone could possibly imagine. That was the formula for what became the Manhattan Engineering District (or Manhattan Project) which developed the first atomic bombs.

    An important factor, in the eyes of those who started the Manhattan Project was the goal of keeping knowledge of the project away from elected and appointed civilian government officials. They simply did not trust those officials to put the good of the nation above their individual political self-interests. And they were remarkably successful in their goal; at the time the first atomic bomb was used in the summer of 1945, there were literally only 5 or 6 elected or appointed civilian government officials who were aware of the true purpose and scope of the project, including FDR, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of War, but not including Vice President Truman. In other words, in order to keep the secret as safe as possible from enemies, it was seen as necessary to keep it from the government. Such projects are clandestine, as opposed to merely secret. In clandestine projects, the very existence and purpose of the project is itself a secret. This is why the Manhattan Project chose a code name that could not be traced back to the true purpose, even by individuals inside the government.

    Given the recent spectacular success of the Manhattan Project I think it is self-evident that that would have been the template used for an effort to reverse engineer a crashed UFO in 1947. They couldn’t keep the existence of the effort secret from elected or appointed civilian government officials if they named the effort the “Crashed UFO Reverse Engineering Agency”, even if the budget for such an agency was voted on in closed session. This doesn’t explain why they would have chosen the specific code name “Majestic” but it does explain why they would have chosen one with those characteristics.

    By Blogger Larry, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • Gilles and CDA:

    If I may clarify once more, I believe what RRRGroup is trying to help you along with here, is that if one wanted to search through records of 1947 today......you may find better and NEW information if your search wasn't narrowed down to only the term ROSWELL.
    RRR makes the suggestion that if you searched beyond just the term ROSWELL you might find what he has been hinting at.

    The thing about not calling this Roswell anymore is his way of saying that information may point one in another area, but this event is often over looked/confused/misplaced as the debris found at Brazel's Ranch that we all refer to as the ROSWELL EVENT. If this information is separate from that debris than one could see why RRR is trying to call this something OTHER THAN Roswell, because AGAIN, he is giving you a huge hint/starting point to search.

    I do agree that this suspense stuff here as of late in regards to everything and anything Roswell is a bit much, but RRR is possibly(?) awaiting an official release from The Dream Team, so as not to undermine their efforts.

    As a relative young researcher myself, I spent a good deal of time searching through the Nasa Archives online as hinted by RRR to no avail. Hopefully one of you who is more experienced here and more wiser, will be able to spot the trail that RRR is speaking about.

    By Blogger Rick Hall, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • Thanks, Rick...

    You have it pretty much as it is.

    By the way, the NASA spot where the 1947 UFO materials reside is not noted as archival.

    I'll provide the actual URL upcoming.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

  • NASA was not formed until October 1958, so NASA archives will have nothing about an event occurring in 1947.

    Yes I know there were predecessor organisations such as NACA. But I do not expect anything about Roswell to be there either.

    Dr Robert H. Goddard did his rocket experiments near Roswell in the 1930s, but these ended c. 1942 I think.

    So I am still baffled, i.e. I still don't 'get it'.

    I sincerely hope and pray that Alzheimer's is not approaching...

    By Blogger cda, at Saturday, February 16, 2013  

  • "Hoo and Don, "tsss" again : playing the man between the wooowooland ufololists & the skeptics, is a role playing we have here too in France, by... Ufologists.
    Easy and "déjà-vu", imho, concerning your role-play...

    Toward an xth version of the Roswell myth, I salute you."

    Gilles, I am not in between any debate about ET, or UFOs, re Roswell. The 'cone of light' of such debates is too narrow to include more than just a fragment of what interests me.

    For example, I am most interested in the newmen in Roswell. As a psychologist, you should be, too. But the ufo Roswell advocates aren't interested in them*, so you aren't, either.

    * Well, they're interested in Frank Joyce when he talks about dead aliens.

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Saturday, February 16, 2013  

  • Christopher:

    The NASA site I'll provide a URL to later this weekend doesn't deal with NASA archives but does have archival material about space and related areas for eras before NASA's own era.

    I'm surprised that you (and others) haven't stumbled upon it before now.

    Anthony Bragalia has, as has Nick Redfern I believe.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, February 16, 2013  

  • Some minor points, R-squared:

    in 1947 there was no NASA...it's nearest equivalent was NACA, formed in 1915

    in July 1947 there was no USAF...the base at Roswell was an Army base supporting one of the US Army aircraft groups

    September of 1947 saw the beginning of both the USAF and a little org called the CIA....this makes it important to parse any statements from USAF or CIA about July 1947 "Roswell" files, as they had as much jurisdiction then as they did during the War of 1812.....

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Saturday, February 16, 2013  

  • P.S. Goddard did his most significant work in his remote lab just north of Roswell.

    For any researcher that actually leaves their computer (!) and does a little traveling, they will find IN Roswell the Roswell Museum and Art Center, which contains Goddard's desert lab moved indoors as a display:

    http://www.roswellmuseum.org/exhibitions/current/goddard.html

    ...the machined components of his late '30s - early '40s rockets are nearly indistinguishable from Apollo-Shuttle eras hardware (trust me on this one)

    ...always made me wonder how a bunch of prop bomber guys would have reacted to a LOX turbopump laying in the desert..

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Saturday, February 16, 2013  

  • Thank you KP:

    I'm fully aware of NASA"s origins.

    NASA has made it a point to go back and gather archival material about space and rocket activity, before its own era.

    And it's online.

    UFO buffs just need to know where to look -- and to be ingenious with their internet searches.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, February 16, 2013  

  • The "green fireball" phenomena began in 1947 and mostly in New Mexico. Ruppelt has a great chaper on this. Dr. Lincoln La Paz, an expert in aerial phenomena, who studied the green fireballs extensively, is quoted (in Project Twinkle's final report) as saying that their origin and trajectories did "NOT permit them to be classified as natural phenomena." If they were not natural, what the heck were they? Does this have anything to do with the alleged crashes in July, 1947? Does anyone know anything about this?

    By Blogger Dominick, at Saturday, February 16, 2013  

  • The green fireballs appeared later in 1947 I think, Dominick.

    Bringing them into the Roswell scenario muddies the issue, doesn't it?

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, February 16, 2013  

  • Strange balloons And monkeys
    http://history.nasa.gov/afspbio/part1.htm.

    Interesting launch date mentioned!

    Dougie

    By Blogger Chainsofthesea, at Sunday, February 17, 2013  

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