UFO Conjectures

Sunday, February 03, 2013

Who or What controlled the Roswell Incident?

Copyright 2013, InterAmerica, Inc.


The February 21, 2013 New York Review of Books has a review, by Sean Wilentz of The Untold History of the United States by Oliver Stone and Peter Kuznick which is a book and TV series (on Showtime). [Cherry-Picking Our History, Page 14 ff.]

In the review Wilentz writes that Stone and Kuznick tells their audience that the U.S. squandered an opportunity to return this country to the “democratic., egalitarian heritage on which its earlier greatness and moral leadership rested” by needlessly dropping atomic bombs  on [Japan].

And here’s the key point that Stone and Kuznick proffer, and which I think and have always thought is key to the Roswell secrecy and botched scenario:

“The calamitous turning point came in 1944 and 1945, when Harry Truman [a very bad President] ascended to the vice-presidency and, after FDR’s death,  to the Presidency.”

Truman, Stone and Kuznick aver was “a neurotic, corrupt, racist demagogue, [who] made all of the wrong decisions.” [Page 14]

Writing previously here, I noted that Truman behaved erratically, and ignorantly. And if something alien crashed near Roswell, Truman was unaffected by such a profound event; he continued on his daily, silly walks, and spent an inordinate amount of time defending his daughter from criticism (singing mostly).

Truman overlooked the intrusions of Soviet espionage agents in the government as Richard Nixon discovered in the Alger Hiss affair and Joseph McCarthy outlined in his maligned accusations of communist infiltrations in the U.S. military and other government agencies.

Truman would have been the primary contact if something odd and significant happened near Roswell.

But his presence, subliminal or overt, has been overlooked and totally ignored by UFO researchers.

Ufologists debate the minor players but have neglected to look at the man who would be at the center of any major event, which was what Roswell was, initially.

This lapse of scrutiny has allowed Roswell to be mish-mashed for years now.

If there was an extraterrestrial event near Roswell, it would have been shut down by Truman himself.

And Truman’s psychopathic personality would not allow anything of an alien nature to rear its head; he was a fundamentalist, stupid man who would suppress anything that smacked of extraterrestrialism.

It was against his nature and non-intellectual personality to acknowledge something foreign invading the human reality.

Deep-sixing the Roswell event would have been his priority.

And although there is some imminent material indicating [sic] an ET presence in the Roswell episode, the idea, back then,  of an alien accident would have been shot down by President Truman, whether it was real or imagined,

His corrupt nature would not allow anything approaching a hint of extraterrestriality.

He even hated blacks and foreigners.

What must he have felt about little beings from galaxies far, far away?



  • You couldn't be more wrong about Truman.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • Even if Truman had some super powers to "shut Roswell down immediately" do you really suppose there is the slightest chance it would remain shut down after 65 years?

    By the way Roswell mas not a major event (as you put it), either then or now.

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • I know you're a Truman devotee, Frank, but you views are opinion as are mine (and Stone/Kuznick).

    I think was Truman was a scourge and reprobate....experiencing his actions and Presidency first-hand, not reading about it.

    The man was a dysfunctional human being and loathsome to those who desired an intelligent, compassionate man in the Oval Office.

    While arguments have been made that allow for the A-bombing of Japan, that action remains one of the worst crimes against humanity, in league with the Holocaust.

    Truman was an ass, in my eyes and others more qualified to judge than me.

    You can continue to laud him; that's on you.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • Christopher:

    Roswell was a major event, although not recognized as such then or even now.

    Truman's complicity has been missed, overlooked by UFO researchers, which is my point.

    But as usual you are sidetracked by an aside.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • RR:

    If you look at any chronology of events of 1947, any listing of important dates and events in the USA or in fact any world fact book or year book for that year, I guarantee there will be no mention, none whatever, of the "Roswell event".

    You can draw your own conclusions. I did long ago.

    Oh, and no revisions will be made to any of the above as a result of the promised new 'revelations' either.

    I confidently predict this.

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • A great many historians grade Truman as one of our finest presidents. Some of the points in your article are absurd. He hated blacks and foreigners? What do you base this on? Truman desegregated the military by executive order. He risked his own election in 48 by offending what became the Dixiecrats because of his positions on civil rights.

    You think Joe McCarthy was a responsible critic? The person he was most harshly critical of was George Marshall, the secretary of both state and defense under Truman, developer of the Marshall Plan and Nobel Peace prize winner. Truman was furious and rightfully so. Do you think Marshall was a Communist sympathizer?

    Calling Truman a psychopath is just plain ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing in the historical record to indicate any such thing. For one thing, he worked his ass off and was remarkably plugged in on any issue he dealt with. If there's one thing I've looked at in my own UFO research, it's the big picture of the Truman presidency, how he operated and worked the system. If there was an ET crash somewhere out there, he was on it, he was informed.

    How Truman managed the executive branch, very proactively, is essential to understanding UFOs of the time. The unambiguous proof of this is his documented White House meeting about the 52 DC incident. He was plugged in on this issue as well and was plugged in all along, at the very least after his appointment of Robert Landry as his USAF aide.

    When you look closely at how Truman ran things and look carefully at the records as well as Truman the man, an ET crash is not inconsistent with what we know for a fact happened.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • Frank...

    You are a Truman fan (fanatic).

    There's nothing anyone can say that will you sway from your affection for HST.

    You a fanboy.

    I appreciate that.

    Your view is not objective but fulsome.

    But I luv ya just the same.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • Christopher....

    You're a well-read guy. more so than most people I know.

    So you know that important things are hidden and kept hidden for years, many years.

    If you know the hidden machinations of my Church, the Church of Rome, you nor anyone would be a Catholic.

    My Jesuit teachers in seminary were aware of the despicable actions of the Church and its Popes.

    Those despicable actions, most, are sub rosa but extant in the Vatican archives....which one could access a few years ago via the internet.

    (I don't think that is so any more.)

    As for Roswell, the event is a common meme nowadays, a myth even, so it has acquired an important status of some kind.

    It's equivalent in the same (academic or scholarly) way as the Shroud of Turin....still open to scientific scrutiny, despite all the errant pronouncements over the years.

    Underneath the Roswell nonsense lies a truth -- I'm not sure exactly what kind of truth -- but I've been allowed hints that indicate Roswell was something more than a small-group scare or mass hysteria or balloon debris or a Brazel-created extraterrestrial fable.

    Whether those hints prove anything is yet to be determined but I'm open to the possibility -- the possibility!

    Whether Christ is proven to have really resurrected or Amelia Earhart landed in the Pacific (and survived for a while) or Roswell was an ET event matters not in some quarters.

    But each one intrigues someone, and that makes them significant in a sociological way or historical way or theological way.

    You would have Roswell-believers forget their fanatic beliefs because you don't believe.

    Where I come from that's a fascistic notion.

    Wile the Roswell debate may be intrinsically foolish, it is a kind of entertainment.

    And on this Earth, in these times, a little entertainment isn't a bad thing....although I vent spleen about it at our media watchdog sites all the time.

    I'm the CDA in the media community.

    So calm down a little -- it's bad for your heart (and mine).

    And let's see what plays out.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • I appreciate the love, I don't get enough of that. :)

    No opinion is completely objective, but mine is at least based on facts.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • Frank...

    There are facts, and then there are "facts."

    I would hope someone might address the lack of insight about Mr. Truman's participation (or lack of it) in the Roswell episode.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • The lack of insight into the big picture of the Truman Administration is an opportunity I've tried to take advantage of. It's lead to some paydirt for me. I'm glad most other UFO researchers have chosen the path they have in their gross oversimplifications. If an ET vehicle did crash in the late 1940s, what happened is about what a reasonable person would expect to have happened.

    You are correct in that all roads would have lead to Truman, but I think your analysis of him and his abilities to manage the executive branch are bad . . . and I say that with love in my heart for you. ;)

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • Thank you Frank...

    It's good that our bond isn't via HST.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • If it wasn't for your encouragement, I never would have started my own blog, so for that I'm eternally grateful to you. We can disagree without being too disagreeable. ;)

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • You and I are friends, truly, Frank.

    And I have to confess, my posting was encouraged by the idea that it would get your attention.

    Now if we can get some info on HST's involvement or not in Roswell that would be icing on the cake.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • Rich: "Truman would have been the primary contact if something odd and significant happened near Roswell."

    The primary response to the Roswell 'object' -- assuming it was anything -- may not have been its scientific importance, but its social and political importance. Power.

    The names we know Marcel, Blanchard, Ramey did not have the position to exploit it. There are only two choices, then. To bury it or cya yourself and pass the buck. The military is ideal for that because it has a rigorous chain of command.

    But if someone in that chain did think they had the "power" to exploit it, they might have done otherwise than take it to the white house.

    Both Truman and the army/aaf and the navy had the same problem in 1947. For the first time since the Jurassic, the Republicans controlled the purse.

    "What must he have felt about little beings from galaxies far, far away?"

    Which seems pretty good reason not to inform him.



    By Blogger Don, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • I'd like to know, seriously, if there is anything extant, in the form of documentation (other than the MJ-12 garbage) which indicates that Truman had ever heard of the Roswell incident.

    There is another 'reveal all' book just out, by Scott Crain and Grant Cameron. Presumably they are onto something concerning Truman. (Presumably indeed!).

    Are they?

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • There isn't much that's obvious there. If there was, I would have gone with it a long time ago. There are some curious clues, Gen. Landry's cryptic unprompted addendum to his oral history where he mentions that his UFO briefings of Truman were never put in writing. He wasn't on staff yet for Roswell, but that should be a point for anyone looking for unambiguous documentation . . . . I'm convinced there isn't any.

    A curious meeting in the White House requested by NM Senator Carl Hatch right after the Roswell crash. Truman and Hatch were close and met somewhat regularly, but the timing is interesting.

    If there was some post-Roswell groundwork to be done, I think it's likely a lot of that took place during his three week trip to Rio during September 47. It's a little more difficult to keep track of what Truman was doing and who he was dealing with when he's at sea for 20 days.

    One thing about Truman was he was a very well-read history buff. The long history of UFO encounters would not have been lost on him. He was quick to blame the newspapers for over-hyping UFOs the only time he was asked about them in July 47, citing the Moon Hoax of the 1800s. I think, if it happened, Truman would have taken an ET crash in stride and moved the military to take advantage of the found technology . . . . and the unambiguous historical record is consistent with that.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • if this new roswell evidence turns out to be promising then it should be shared with world an the US Fed Gov should then be challenged on its lies ( if they turn out to be lies ) is it ET, russian experiment or simply mogul balloon parts? i hope these investigations reveal some truths to this event, its been a long time coming.

    By Blogger Al12, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • I smell a very top important secret very top (secret, top secret) one disclosure top secret information concerning the Roswell Myth(os) will be soon released.

    A revolution for Sciences is incoming by the so-called Roswell "DreamTeam".. Stay tuned!

    Wait, it will be limited to ufology microscosm?
    Damned scientists, they will not care about it, despite the superbe effort made by Roswell ufologists. Ces salauds !

    We need a scientific paradigm switch, and the so-called Roswell DreamTeam will produce scientific evidences for it!

    More seriously, I wait (again) the worst incoming by the Roswell mythmakers or story-tellers or by the so-called DreamTeam.

    At least, it will be placed and figuring as a strong evidence in some folklore devoted museums in Roswell. That's cool! No?
    That's ufology!



    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Sunday, February 03, 2013  

  • Any historian worth his or her salt can tell you is that the first mistake of measuring past choices is to place the prejudices and foibles of historical figures and place them in today's context. If you have read both the plans of the two pronged U.S invasion of Japan as well the Japanese military leadership knowing full well where we were going to strike, it is a consensus that our invasion would have resulted in a fiasco of historic proportion in terms of the death toll on both sides. I don't think it is as clear cut as an situation for Truman to determine a decision upon as you make it out to be. Post editorial morality versus the lesser of two bad choices.Recall Einsteins advocacy to use the bomb only to have his stance be turned around once it was used. Recall the Germans were close to an A bomb. The Russians had infiltrated our secrecy about this weapon at the onset of the Cold War while Korea was about to implode into a war. Remember grandstanding McArthur's wanting to begin WW3?
    Outside of this, your logic is backward in terms of linking Truman to Roswell directly. Does the coach have direct responsibility when the ball is fumbled on the field?

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Tuesday, February 05, 2013  

  • BTW..I think Trumans ruminating on "about little beings from galaxies far, far away?" was nil in terms of his pragmatism.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Tuesday, February 05, 2013  

  • Bruce:

    The Truman "doctrine" was rooted in his lack of intellectual thought.

    His machinations, regarding enemies of the U.S. were rudimentary at best.

    That aside -- it's not the purview here (and I don't want it to be) -- Truman had to be in on the Roswell incident, even passively.

    What he had to say or do with it has never been investigated fully or even haphazardly.

    Truman ruminated about nothing.

    He was a bumpkin.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, February 05, 2013  

  • If you are suggesting a visit to the Truman Library rather than foisting a polemic atop of a polemic, this could be useful. The issue that runs deeper ( to me) is the lack of self awareness by researchers who think themselves experts so they don't ask for expert opinion. Think of all the high ranking ex military officers who have gone directly into corporations involved in aeronautical propulsion (both Navy and Air Force). Has anyone outside of Nick Cook or Nick Redfern spoken to them to investigate these relationships between the past and present? Northrup investigated and confirmed the origins of stealth technology in a Reich jet craft. Stealth as being invisible to radar as the acronym of UFO. Again Truman himself, if anything would have approved a false flag to bury the dog along with the bone. It has nothing to do with his being a bumpkin or what have you. It sounds silly.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Tuesday, February 05, 2013  

  • Bruce...

    What Truman knew or didn't know about Roswell is what is missing.

    That he was a bumpkin is irrelevant.

    I only slipped that in because I found HST to have been a slovenly President.

    I have to hold those opinions close to the vest, apparently, as they bring out the HST advocates and take us far afield -- readers here so easily distracted by asides.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, February 05, 2013  

  • Bruce: "If you have read both the plans of the two pronged U.S invasion of Japan as well the Japanese military leadership knowing full well where we were going to strike, it is a consensus that our invasion would have resulted in a fiasco of historic proportion in terms of the death toll on both sides."

    "As agreed with the Allies at the Tehran Conference (November 1943) and the Yalta Conference (February 1945), the Soviet Union entered World War II's Pacific Theater within three months of the end of the war in Europe. The invasion began on August 9, 1945, exactly three months after the German surrender on May 8 (May 9, 0:43 Moscow time)."


    Knowing the Soviets would massively attack the Japanese forces on the mainland, I think the decision to drop the bombs was baked in to our plans. I am not sure whether the bomb alone would have been convincing reason to surrender, considering the ethos of the Japanese ruling class, but the bomb and the possibility of a Soviet attack on Japan itself, was a fearsome prospect. The combination provoked a moment of clear thinking on their part and they surrendered.



    By Blogger Don, at Tuesday, February 05, 2013  

  • Don:

    I'm begging you, Bruce, and Frank Stalter.....try to stick to the Roswell import of my post.

    The HST Presidency and his decisions outside Roswell are grist for a blog somewhere other than here.

    I know you guys like to flaunt your knowledge about things, but I don't want to go further astray here, or else we'll end up with a Kevin Randle blog.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, February 05, 2013  

  • Rich: "The HST Presidency and his decisions outside Roswell are grist for a blog somewhere other than here."

    An AEC member had the weather balloon and rawin story rather early.

    "I know you guys like to flaunt your knowledge about things, but I don't want to go further astray here, or else we'll end up with a Kevin Randle blog."

    The hint appeared recently on Kevin's blog by someone who cannot post here. I little checking turned up the AEC connection, which I shared in email. I have also referred commenters to the concurrent atomic secrets theft story.

    What Truman might have been told, if anything, is still unknown (unless you are ok with MJ12). It depends on the political ideologies of the AF men who would do the telling. I would expect some of them to have informed Truman, or at least have handled it as a 'bargaining chip', if they went elsewhere with it.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but the notion of the President as Commander in Chief of the armed forces, was not so taken for granted in during peacetime and in initiating a war, as it is today. The branches of service were not as yet used to the notion of a "unified" military, either.

    Power and politics, Rich. History.



    By Blogger Don, at Tuesday, February 05, 2013  

  • Don:

    The AEC connection is interesting, as the AEC's influence in the American southwest was heavy, because, of course, of the A-bomb, H-bomb, Cobalt bomb tests there.

    But that is peripheral to what I am driving at...

    HST was certainly apprised of the Roswell incident, if the new information/evidence is real.

    If he wasn't, the U.S. government was in the very disarray that Stone and Kluznick says it was.

    Tony Bragalia sent me the Truman comments (via YouTube) about flying saucers and things -- the clip we've all seen.

    I get from it that HST had an interest in saucers but wasn't very knowledgeable about the phenomenon.

    This because he was a bumpkin, more interested in his daily walks and defending his goofy daughter.

    Aliens from space wouldn't be on his radar exactly, but I get the impression from the YouTube clip that he was intrigued by the things; not enough to make the MJ-12 documents real but enough to get a wink from him.

    I can see him putting the kibosh on the Roswell discovery -- yes, the discovery -- without really understanding its import.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, February 05, 2013  

  • Rich, my point is if the AEC were in the loop on at least the Ft Worth Scenario (before the big reveal there), then I would expect Truman to be in it, too. Whether he would know more than that, I have no evidence.



    By Blogger Don, at Tuesday, February 05, 2013  

  • Truman was briefed regularly about flying saucers by his USAF aide Gen. Robert Landry. This isn't myth, the source was Landry himself in his oral history for the Truman library. We can't know exactly which cases were brought directly to Truman's attention but there were a number of big ones during his term. DC 52 is a certainty, that's in the record. I expect the Mantell case was brought up. It's a safe bet both the Newhouse and Mariana films came up. But that's what we've got, we know there were regular briefings, no specifics which cases they dealt with. Ed Ruppelt's book is very instructive on the period. When Truman wanted to know what was happening over the capital in July 52, Landry called Ruppelt.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Tuesday, February 05, 2013  

  • R-cubed:

    I thank you for another thought-provoking blogpost... and while at this point in time I have nothing to constructively add to this discussion, I DO have a thought that you might reach out to the old, unsung, back office historical researchers of the original Center for UFO Studies 'Roswell' investigation:

    Dr. Mike Swords
    Frank John Reid
    George Eberhart

    ...perusing 20-year-old copies of the defunct International UFO Reporter, I see that they were the library research complement to the field work of Randle, Schmitt, and later Carey....

    ...just a thought...

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Tuesday, February 05, 2013  

  • Thanks KP...

    But the UFO geezers don't evoke enthusiasm in me.

    Your suggestion, however, may have merit for others who visit here and need to review their Roswell materials.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, February 05, 2013  

  • I would give high odds that NONE of the following:

    Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford or Carter

    had ever heard of Roswell while they were in office. Some of them might, conceivably, have heard of the town itself in some connection, but not in a UFO context.

    Anyway, that is my view. Would anyone care to dispute this? If so, please provide (genuine) documents to back up your argument, i.e. not MJ-12.

    Perhaps Reagan did, but only as a result of the Berlitz/Moore book.

    By Blogger cda, at Wednesday, February 06, 2013  

  • You may be right, CDA, but you might also be wrong.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, February 06, 2013  

  • Your post regarding Truman, and the immoral nature of the A bomb drops over Japan resulted in my comment addressing this. I would not characterize my response or others as flaunting knowledge. Your statement of his bigoted nature is another example without context. Another is the Truman Doctrine, which left out the civil wars in Greece and Turkey that led to it. None of this is tied to Roswell, and then you ask what Truman's role might have been saying he was bigoted toward spacemen (?) Not one of your better posts. If you do not want errata for comments, you might want to leave out your own as to avoid criticising what created them.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, February 06, 2013  

  • Thanks for the advice Bruce...

    I acknowledged my inane asides, but I was trying to get comments that didn't stray from the gist of my post, which is rather clear despite my (irrelevant) offshoots.

    You would have me post and monitor this blog your way.

    I'm not inclined to do that.

    You fellows take my snide remarks more personally than they are meant to be.

    I want to stay within topic, even as I go off the road.....but it's my blog so.....


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, February 06, 2013  

  • @cda: What kinds of odds are you offering?

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Wednesday, February 06, 2013  

  • CDA wants "genuine documents" to support the claim that, say, John Kennedy knew something about the recovery of flying discs in New Mexico in 1947. If "genuine documents" means "government released" documents well, then, there are none. But if "genuine" means that tge document reveals information that appears reasonable and that holds up under scrutiny and analysis, then there may well be such a document.

    There is a document (not MJ-12)that names names and dates for recovery of discs and bodies in July, 1947, in New Mexico. And, interestingly, John Kennedy, then a Representative from Massachusetts, is specifically mentioned as having learned some details about the crash and recoveries. This document, the IPU Report (Top Secret Ultra)with a 1960 release date, has long fascinated researchers and may well be genuine; it cannot be rejected out of hand simply because it has never been officially released.

    I'm guessing, only a guess, that some of the new revelations concerning Roswell may well relate to and confirm some of the info in this IPU report.

    By Blogger Dominick, at Wednesday, February 06, 2013  

  • Dominick:

    Please point me & others to the said document. Then we can judge its authenticity. I will be most interested to see if it is a genuine 1960 document, or a much later one that has been forged and backdated.

    At the moment my guess is that it is the latter. The mere fact that "Top Secret Ultra" appears on it convinces me it is a fake.

    By Blogger cda, at Wednesday, February 06, 2013  

  • If Rich will allow it, CDA, here is the link to the IPU document. Am surprised that you have never heard of it.


    Also, at the same website, there are other various documents with alleged Kennedy connections. Consumer beware, of course, is always the rule. However, let's not fall into the trap of guilt by association or simply decide, without any evaluations, that the appearance of "Top Secret Ultra" on a document makes it "fake." Such a clearance existed and, I'm told, still exists.

    By Blogger Dominick, at Wednesday, February 06, 2013  

  • CDA asked: "Please point me & others to the said document."

    The document may be downloaded from http://majesticdocuments.com/documents/pre1948.php

    It’s the one titled “Counter Intelligence Corp/Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit Report, 22 July 1947”

    It was one of the documents received by Tim Cooper in 1992 or later at his address in Big Bear Lake, CA, presumably as an image on an undeveloped roll of film.

    However, I am not certain about that last comment. I think Bob Wood would know for sure whether or not an actual physical, paper document was received.

    By Blogger Larry, at Wednesday, February 06, 2013  

  • I have looked at the quoted document and am completely satisfied it is a fake.

    "Triangularization"? Sure. The writer cannot, or will not, write English.

    The scientists who arrived at the site realised at once that it was "something out of this world". Did they? What a truly remarkably clever lot they are, or were.

    This sort of thing is laughable and so is the whole 'Majestic documents' site, but it excites and titillates the minds of a few, I suppose.

    "Top Secret Ultra", eh?

    I can make a suitable anagram of that if you wish.

    By Blogger cda, at Thursday, February 07, 2013  

  • Thanks CDA (Christopher)...

    Your observation is similar to mine.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, February 07, 2013  

  • The MJ-12 documents are entertaining fan fiction. They are pretty well researched and useful if you're just getting into this UFO business.

    By Blogger Frank Stalter, at Thursday, February 07, 2013  

  • CDA: "The scientists who arrived at the site realised at once that it was "something out of this world". Did they? What a truly remarkably clever lot they are, or were."

    I found "out of this world" commonly used in three contexts at the time.

    1) When someone has died (he passed out of this world).

    2) Pop music (his playing was out of this world)

    3) Advertising (the low price is out of this world)

    I was looking for examples of an expression used in a news story about Arnold's Mt Ranier sighting:

    "These "saucer-shaped" planes are strictly out of this planet, military experts agreed." I've not found anothere example of "out of this planet"



    By Blogger Don, at Thursday, February 07, 2013  

  • The descent into how individuals define evidence by conceptualizing
    inference into solid objects reminds me of a third rate magician's trick of pulling a handkerchief from his sleeve and the audience gasps with astonishment.
    MJ-12 has proven to be a poor patching of superimposition that reminds me of "All I know is what I read in the newspapers."
    Here in the South they would term this overexposed and somewhat predictable magical routine "old timey" as in "give me that old time religion" as the barn burns down.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Thursday, February 07, 2013  

  • CDA wrote:

    "Top Secret Ultra", eh?"

    Pray tell why the use of this designation for classified material has your knickers in such a twist?

    Specifically what knowledge do you have regarding rules of classification in use in the postwar USA that would show this classification to be fake or fraudulent?

    By Blogger Larry, at Thursday, February 07, 2013  

  • Larry
    Ultra top secret may as well be double top secret or super dooper top secret. Classifications that I know of are:
    1.Top Secret
    4.For Official Use Only

    Where else is ultra top secret ( super dooper)evidenced in a declassified document?

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Thursday, February 07, 2013  

  • ...of course, in July 1947 'Paperclip' was somewhat 'non-public', as I think at that time the foreign nationals in NM were NOT legally there.....

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Thursday, February 07, 2013  

  • The first appearance of the concept appears to have been during the 1964 Senate hearings on the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. The committee members were told they didn't have the clearance for certain information, although they all were cleared for Top Secret. That is when Secretary McNamara used the phrase "above top secret".

    "When Senator Albert Gore, Sr., asked McNamara to clarify, saying, "I had not heard of this particular super classification," McNamara replied, "Clearance is above top secret for the particular information on the situation."

    I believe the quotation is from The US Intelligence Community by Jeffrey T. Richelson.

    The "above top secret" appears to be a form of compartmentalization rather than an additional clearance level.



    By Blogger Don, at Thursday, February 07, 2013  

  • Off topic a bit:

    That word "triangularization" that popped up in one of those Majestic documents. It struck me that had the saucer crashes occurred in the Four Corners region of NM, and not Roswell, would the writer hve used the word "rectangularization" instead?

    In the UK there is a town near London called Sevenoaks. Had the crash occurred there, presumably he would have written "heptagonalization".

    And so on. Do you get my point?

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, February 08, 2013  

  • Yes, CDA...

    That some (not you) still bring forth the MJ-12 material is a rather sad commentary on the mental abilities of UFO buffs.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 08, 2013  

  • Ken
    The 1998 Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act resulted in this report to Congress which included all the copies of previously unreleased military and intelligence documents. The act was passed to force the hand of the CIA. Particularly Operation Paperclip known as Project Overcast. All copies are marked Secret. No Ultra Top Secret, etc. You can read the report yourself. If you are a history buff it's interesting. There are other aspects and curious details regarding the inventory of Nazi experiments but it would be off topic to get into that.


    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, February 08, 2013  

  • BTW..
    In the Roswell time frame, secrecy extended to the Atomic Energy Commission, which of course the air wing at Roswell was charged with the deployment of atomic weapons of which, the AEC had secrecy classifications as well. Among the documents withheld due to potential "embarrassment" that one of the chief aspects of the Nuremberg Trials as well as the unsuccessful search for Dr Mengele revolved around "human experimentation", we were doing the same, in secret classified projects. I always wondered when doing my own research, if the false flag of Roswell hid an atomic experiment gone wrong.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, February 08, 2013  

  • Having read through this often hilarious comment thread for the first time today, it seems to me that Bruce (kudos to him) has the most cogent speculation in his last comment -- that bloody press release could have been a cover story for a small scale nuclear accident. That would explain a lot of the behavior that took place around the incident.

    By Blogger purrlgurrl, at Friday, February 08, 2013  

  • PG:

    I, too, think Bruce is near to what the incident was.....near.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 08, 2013  

  • RR:

    Are you saying, in effect, that Nick Redfern was right after all?

    Or are you saying it was a nuclear accident at the base?

    The press release was redundant in either case. You would hardly choose to release something to the press to cover up something else. You would simply keep your mouth(s) firmly shut. A release of any kind merely invites inquisitiveness from the press and public.

    The true reason for the PR must be found elsewhere. I still say some folks at RAAF just got a bit over-excited and/or exhuberant and went a step too far. Hence the rebuke from Washington.

    If something, anything, had occurred that was truly supersecret, e.g. related to atomic energy, A-bombs or the like, there would have been no PR at all. Unless human lives were lost, disclosure would not have emerged until years later. And nothing would have appeared in the contemporary press.

    That PR was a piece of misguided public relations that went too far.

    As a result, since 1980, we have had 32 years of baloney piled upon more baloney, with no sign of it ceasing.

    Poor Harry Truman: his picture (with hat) does resemble Barney Barnett in the Berlitz/Moore book, standing in front of that house, don't you think?

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, February 08, 2013  

  • Christopher (and others)...

    Nick was going to do something on the new evidence and Roswell itself but has since pulled back because some of those involved are subject to legal restraints.

    However, I'll recap what I know in a day or so.

    Something happened. There's material that indicates that something happened.

    But what that was exactly is open to interpretation, and I can't present information that was given to me on the QT.

    But I can present an overview or hypothesis, with some clues that you and others can use to follow up if desired.

    The material I have has been available since 1947 and has been marginalized and or presented incorrectly.

    The supporting evidence is not mine to share but I can allude to it, and will.

    This will allow an ET scenario or an exotic accident of some kind; nuclear? Possibly, but unlikely.

    More to come.....and it's becoming tedious, as what has come to light creates more controversy I think, although Randle's team believes it doesn't.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 08, 2013  

  • CDA: "The true reason for the PR must be found elsewhere. I still say some folks at RAAF just got a bit over-excited and/or exhuberant and went a step too far. Hence the rebuke from Washington."

    For this version of the Roswell story, the 'elation' is off. The true reason for the PR is as it was written, if not how it was read by the press -- and we must also rehabilitate Bloecher.

    I tried to explain how the press release was misunderstood, but was flamed for the effort. I then learned the entire Roswell investigator community and one pseudo-skeptic think it was all just distracting, and now my feelings are hurt, so, you'll just have to figure it out by yourselves, now (sniff).



    By Blogger Don, at Friday, February 08, 2013  

  • Pseudo-skeptic?

    Who might that be I wonder (rhetorically)?


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, February 08, 2013  

  • As to "Top Secret Ultra"


    Of course CDA and Bruce did not even bother to check, their personal incredulity is all the evidence they need.

    By Blogger Ross Evans, at Friday, February 08, 2013  

  • We know "Ultra" was used by the Brits.



    By Blogger Don, at Friday, February 08, 2013  

  • CDA wrote:

    "Triangularization"? Sure. The writer cannot, or will not, write English.

    So, it turns out that there are experts who study “questioned documents”. CDA isn’t one, of course; he is just a curmudgeon with an exaggerated sense of self-worth. I’m not an expert, either. But those who are make the point that idiosyncratic errors in spelling, punctuation, sentence formation and the like can actually be an indication of authenticity, rather than falsity. It depends on the context. In this case, the author of the purported IPU document would have been certainly male (because there were no females in military line positions), almost certainly a native-born American (because intelligence agents had to have no exploitable foreign entanglements), and very likely having nothing more than a high school education (because he was educated in the US in the first half of the twentieth century). Moreover, he was writing the report on a typewriter, probably himself and without dictation (to avoid intermediary secretaries who could be sources of leaks) and so did not have the benefit of modern spell-checking and the ability to easily make corrections. Under those conditions, perfection in use of the Queen’s English is probably not to be expected. If the author had been an Australian, he probably would have shown Australian English idiosyncrasies in use of the language; if he had been British, he probably would have sounded like he came from the playing fields of Eton.

    CDA also wrote: “The scientists who arrived at the site realised at once that it was "something out of this world". Did they? What a truly remarkably clever lot they are, or were.”

    Well, yes, as a matter of fact, they were a remarkably clever lot. Among those who were identified by name as being present were Wehrner Von Braun and J. R. Oppenheimer. These were two of the cleverest humans on the planet at the time. Either one was an order of magnitude smarter than CDA, and therefore probably not comprehensible by him. Von Braun was at the top of the team that developed modern spaceflight. Oppenheimer was at the top of the team that developed modern atomic energy. They weren’t team leaders because they were bureaucrats or administrators; they achieved those positions because they were recognized by their peers as being the most capable scientists and engineers. It is hard to imagine two more capable individuals at the time to assess the nature of an “extraordinary recovery of fallen airborne objects”. Although, to be fair, it probably took them 5 or 10 minutes to determine they were from “out of this world”.

    By Blogger Larry, at Saturday, February 09, 2013  

  • Bruce wrote:

    “Ultra top secret may as well be double top secret or super dooper top secret. Classifications that I know of are:
    1.Top Secret
    4.For Official Use Only”


    “In the Roswell time frame, secrecy extended to the Atomic Energy Commission, which of course the air wing at Roswell was charged with the deployment of atomic weapons of which, the AEC had secrecy classifications as well.”

    You’re stumbling around the truth. Here are the facts: the classifications Confidential, Secret, and Top Secret are the current classification levels that are used within Executive Branch agencies and authorized by Executive Order of the President in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief. They are used to protect information that is defined as National Security Information (NSI). Decades ago, when I first got a clearance, there used to be an additional classification level known as Restricted. That was the lowest level of classification for NSI, and was often confused with the classification known as “Restricted Data”, which is just about the highest level of classification, but applies only to secrets within the purview of the Atomic Energy Commission and its heirs. Perhaps for that reason, the classification of Restricted was dropped and is no longer in use. For Official Use Only (FUOU) is not a security classification at all; it has nothing to do with either NSI or Restricted Data.

    Access to Restricted Data (RD) was originally controlled entirely by the AEC (a civilian agency), by law, and now by the agencies that took over when the AEC was disbanded, including the Department of Energy and the National Nuclear Security Agency. The division that was worked out was that the AEC owned all Special Nuclear Material (SNM, e.g., Plutonium and Uranium) and controlled all access to RD, including all the physics of how nuclear weapons are designed and function. The Air Force (Army, Navy) had possession of nuclear devices and had to control them in a manner prescribed by the AEC, but they (ultimately under the control of the Commander-in-chief) get to say how many weapons and of what type, are produced. The original Atomic Energy Act was passed in 1946, signed by Harry Truman, and was in effect as of January, 1947.

    Also, as luck would have it, about 4 or 5 years ago I spent a fair amount of time in the National Archives in College Park, MD. I was interested in searching the communications that were flowing into and out of General George Marshall’s office, when he was Army Chief of Staff during WWII for any hint of UFO related information. I went through several boxes that spanned the entire duration of the War, containing onionskin copies of all of Marshall’s formerly Top Secret communications (since declassified). Most of it was fairly ordinary stuff--ordering General X or Colonel Y to a certain theater of war--someone out in the field complaining that Major Z was incompetent, etc. However, one folder was labeled “Marshall’s Super Secret File”.

    Thinking I had found pay dirt, I dove into it. The file was a folder with a single sheet of paper in it. The sheet had on it a list of approximately 100 numbers, each number corresponding to a separate Top Secret communiqué which had been destroyed at Marshall’s order shortly before he left his post as COS. All information about the origins, destinations, and subjects of the communiqués was absent; as I recall, each one was identified only by a number and a date. At the bottom of the page was the signature of a low-ranked officer who had witnessed the destruction of the documents on a specified date.

    Was the term “Super Secret” an official War Department classification at the time? No. Was it nevertheless used by the highest officer in the Army? Yes. Will anyone ever know what was in those communiqués from the first half of the 1940s? No.

    By Blogger Larry, at Saturday, February 09, 2013  

  • Larry:

    You seem to want to accept the authenticity of the "Top Secret Ultra" document we discussed. I never said that such a classification did not exist. I merely scoffed at the idea that it was ever applied to a genuine official document which talked about crashed discs and alien bodies.

    Sometime maybe you, or another researcher, can dig up von Braun's or Oppenheimer's papers or diaries from 1947 and see if either of them ever visited a site of a crashed UFO, i.e. Roswell, Aztec or anywhere else. When you find such papers, or other papers strongly suggesting this, please report back to this blog and give us the great news.

    Friedman did this with Menzel and Hillenkoetter, so some keen researcher ought to do it with the above two scientists.

    By the way, the particular 'document' you referred to was written in the 1990s by a forger but made to appear of July 1947 origin. I want to see a genuine document that was written in 1947.

    I await your discovery.

    And yes, I agree that both these scientists were "an order of magnitude" (maybe two such orders) smarter than me.

    By Blogger cda, at Saturday, February 09, 2013  

  • Larry
    An unofficial descriptive term is not the same as a utilitarian, functioning label used to route hard copies by several departmental entities in a classification process that is recognized by same. I remember looking at the mystery signal received by SETI and written on it was "Wow!". Not exactly a scientific term. Again,going back to the root of this, where are the Ultra Top Secret examples in declassified documents? This is the whole issue of Roswell, minutia abstracted without context and MJ-12 as far as I can see is right up there with Clifford Irvings interviews with Hughes or The Hitler Diaries.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Saturday, February 09, 2013  

  • The IPU Report under discussion claims that President Truman was briefed about the Roswell incident on July 10th (1947) by General Vandenberg. This should be fairly easy to check. Did Vandenberg have a meeting with Truman on that date?It also claims that General Twining made specific visits to various facilities to view debris and power plant material. The Report identifies the exact dates (July 7,8,9,10) and places visited...again, fairly easy to check I would think. If all of this checks out, the question then remains as to why anyone would go through the enormous trouble of discovering this (correct) information and then "fake" the IPU document?! And for what purpose? Challenge for CDA: If you can show that ANY of the assertions about briefings and visits mentioned above are incorrect, then some of us will take serioulsy your assertion that the IPU Report is an obvious fake.

    By Blogger Dominick, at Saturday, February 09, 2013  

  • According to Tony Bragalia, in an article published here a few years ago, the IPU was discovered by John Frick, whom he refers to as a ufo researcher, now dead ("the late...").

    Mr Frick it seems came across a DCII document which mentions Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit. This information was confirmed and elaborated on by an AFOSI agent, also deceased, named Rudolph M. Schellhammer.

    Thereupon, Hall 1980, Steinman 1984, and Good 1987, corresponded with Army CI about the IPU. During this time, the IPU turns up in MJ-12 docs.

    Perhaps a UFO "aficionado" reading might have some information about Mr Frick? What I can find out doing a simple search is that he appeared around 1977, self-published some books, was a founder of a UFO organization in Florida which has been "inactive" since nearly its founding in the mid-1980s. Some of his writing appears to be Contactee-oriented. He appears to have been active between 1977-1985.

    Tony wrote Mr Frick published the first reference to the IPU in an article in a now defunct newspaper of Sun Myung Moon, The News World. Does anyone have a copy of that article?

    Does anyone have a mention of the IPU outside of a counter intelligence context?



    By Blogger Don, at Friday, February 15, 2013  

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