UFO Conjecture(s)

Friday, May 03, 2013

The Skeptical Arguments for the 1947 Roswell Crashed Saucer Scenario

This paper by Kent Jeffrey appeared in the Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 12, No. 1, pp. 79± 101, 1998:


roswellcda.jpg

The content below is Mr. Jeffrey's concluding remarks. It sums up the major arguments of those skeptical of the Roswell Crashed Saucer story.

(I've placed in italics one of Christopher Allan's [CDA] primary objection to the Roswell story.)

The paper, in its entirety is erudite and splendidly sensible. Those interested, who have not seen it, would do well to read it. If necessary, we can put a link to it online here.

Conclusion:

Any complete and reasonable response by those who still contend that a UFO crashed at Roswell in 1947 will need to directly address the points below, each of which would have to be a true statement if such a crash occurred:

· A machine with unimaginable technological sophistication and consequent incredible reliability would have simply broken down and crashed.

· The only known wreckage from this sophisticated vehicle, capable of interstellar travel, would have consisted solely of a few short beams, pieces of foil-like material, and small pieces of thin plastic-like material.

· By incredible coincidence, the material from the crashed spaceship would have very closely resembled the material left by the radar reflectorsfrom a balloon array that went down in the same general area a few weeks earlier.

· Despite the fact that this would have been the most spectacular event in recorded history, and despite the fact that  word was already out that something had happened (because of Lt. Haut’s press release), there was absolutely no  contemporary discussion or talk about such an earthshaking event among the pilots and navigators of the close-knit 509th Bomb Group.

· West Point graduate and retired general Thomas Dubose, would have to have lied nine times in an interview when he stated that the debris (definitely that from an ML-307 radar reflector) shown in the pictures in Ramey’s off ice was not substituted material and was the ª real debrisº recovered from the ranch northwest of Roswell.

· Major General C. P. Cabell, Director of Intelligence for the Air Force at the Pentagon, who prepared a report on the unidentified flying object situation for the Secretary of Defense, astoundingly, would have been preparing the report totally ignorant of the fact that the Air Force was in possession of a crashed flying saucer.

· Three retired Air Force colonels, all former top officials at the Foreign Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force base would have been lying to me unnecessarily wasting inordinate amounts of their own personal time in a protracted game of charades.

We have now gotten to the heart of the story and established that the debris recovered from the Foster ranch and laid out on the Marcel kitchen floor was, except for some unusual symbols, of a very mundane nature. The following should then be asked of those still arguing the issue: How do you get a crashed alien spaceship out of such ordinary debris? What basis is there now for postulating the existence of a crashed UFO.?
------------------------

RR

17 Comments:

  • The italicised part is easily explained. These pilots and other AF men were much too frightened, even to talk among themselves about it. They had been threatened that they would be forcibly taken out into the desert, shot, and turned into dogfood.

    And that, dear RR, is the sad but obvious answer to Kent Jeffrey's question.

    Sad but true. You can ask AJB if in doubt!

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, May 03, 2013  

  • CDA:

    AJB and the Roswell Dream Team think the new evidence that has been floating around among cognoscenti will confirm the ET angle of the Roswell incident.

    I think it will only open a new can of worms.

    Kent Jeffrey's paper, which you have read apparently, is a nice, well-considered approach to the Roswell matter.

    The debris aspect is clarified and makes eminent sense.

    Yet, there is, truly, a fear aspect among so-called witnesses. Why these WW II era people were so frightened by the U.S. government baffles me.

    But they were.

    So keeping silent is not an element of the story that I question.

    Tony Bragalia has experienced, first hand, that fear and/or fear of loss of pensions and retirement monies.

    That people would hold on to a great truth -- an ET crash -- just to keep their pensions intact goes against Tom Brokaw's thesis in his book that the WW II generation was a brave. heroic group -- the greatest generation.

    But if they were and are cowed by a nebulous fright of government intervention if they spoke about what they saw or knew, they are not the great generation they were said to be.

    They were and are cowardly sh*ts.

    Or there was nothing to spill the beans about and their supposed fear is not fear at all; it's just a matter of not responding to obvious foolishness and a silly story.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 03, 2013  

  • cda writes...

    Your last sentence says it all.
    Amen.

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 03, 2013  

  • The second point (The only known wreckage from this sophisticated vehicle, capable of interstellar travel, would have consisted solely of a few short beams, pieces of foil-like material, and small pieces of thin plastic-like material)is the real killer for me.

    By Blogger Tristan Eldritch, at Friday, May 03, 2013  

  • TE:

    We've been making a case, in light of new evidence that has yet to see the light of day, that the debris found by Mac Brazel was indeed balloon debris, but had nothing to do with the real Roswell incident, which took place east of the Foster ranch, north of Roswell.

    Brazel's "adventure" confused the issue but was used by the Army as a diversion.

    Roswell investigators exacerbated the confusion by zeroing in on Brazel and his pile of junk from a downed weather balloon.

    Brazel and the debris have nothing whatsoever to do with the real Roswell event, which is supposed to be presented soon -- we keep hearing from Kevin Randle's Dream Team.

    Jeffrey's elaborate account, in the paper cited here, of the debris element of the Roswell story is golden.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 03, 2013  

  • "The second point (The only known wreckage from this sophisticated vehicle, capable of interstellar travel, would have consisted solely of a few short beams, pieces of foil-like material, and small pieces of thin plastic-like material)is the real killer for me.

    Yet there was a time when Plastic was considered high-tech. Isn't it amazing that UFO technology more or less exactly mirrors that of human technology? And it keeps up, it seems, at the same general pace. When humans discover lasers, we have laser-beaming UFOs.

    I'm actually somewhat surprised that nobody has seen an alien that used Velcro. Maybe there has been...

    By Blogger Parakletos, at Saturday, May 04, 2013  

  • Securing the last testimonies remains vital in learning the full Roswell story- but as RR points out- some remain fearful or reluctant to say things even after the passage of decades.

    I see them as cowards who do not honor their highest obligation before they pass. That is the obligation to truth and to history.

    To those brave who have come forward with what they know will be added documentary and physical evidences, if things pan out as hoped...but we must remain very patient.

    That kind of evidence requires extraordinary efforts in evaluation: Vetting and checking, finding and assembling needed technical expertise with the required required analytical tools, finding historical expertise, analyzing and authenticating, securing second opinions, confirming provenance, gaining needed permissions, finding the appropriate venue to release...all this takes much time.

    Patience often leads to truth and Mr. Jeffrey quit too soon to learn it.

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Saturday, May 04, 2013  

  • I was able to speak to a former RAAF military gentleman, who just happened to live on my delivery route. His daughter and I had spoken a few times, and she introduced us. He told me that many folks on the base knew that "something weird" had occurred, and they spoke of it, now and again, over ther years.

    The notion that no one ever spoke of it is incorrect. They simply understood that they were never "in-the-loop", and so let it go, mostly.

    When later, J. Marcel was interviewed, these folks began to remember, and ponder it once more.

    By Blogger Bob Koford, at Saturday, May 04, 2013  

  • Tony, calling them cowards is beyond pale. You went down this road in the past and had a big blow back...do you remember?

    So the ones that talked to you are "heroes", but those who declined are cowards?

    I have to call your attitude pure unadulterated BS. I possess certain knowledge from my days past in SAC and I'm obligated to keep my silence...for now because certain principles governing ICBM operations is still classified. I hardly view that as taking the cowards approach.

    Tony, I don't know what you and Randle will be presenting and I'm really interested in your eventual findings and conclusions, BUT if you want to keep a shred of credibility IMHO, please lay off the coward meme.

    It unnecessarily pisses off current and former military members and reveals your perceived contempt/disdain for those who don't want to talk to you.

    You can count me in the thoroughly pissed-off category.

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Saturday, May 04, 2013  

  • Tim:

    I also make reference to "cowards" but not because of what these people are keeping quiet about but because they are silent they say, so as not to lose a pension or retirement funds.

    That's awful.

    Tony's reference is the same I think.

    I've seen transcripts of his calls with these men (mostly) and they are weaselly, but about money not security or honor.

    Veterans are to be honored, surely.

    But to deny a truth to keep oneself in the money is egregious.

    But anyone of us might do the same.

    We all have to live and sometimes it's only a pension or social security keeping our heads above water.

    Tony's people -- the ones he's interviewed -- seem to be well-heeled, so for them to decry a loss of money as their reason to keep quiet about what they know or heard does seem cowardly or venal, at least.

    I don't think Tony is impugning the veterans or their service.

    He's chagrinned by their lack of honoring truth more than money.

    It's a tough call, as I've noted.

    Taking away one's livelihood or means of living may make any of us hesitant to speak up when push comes to shove.

    In the old days -- really old days -- there were men who sacrificed all for the good of others.

    History is replete with such stories of self-sacrifice.

    That someone who knew that an alien ship had crashed on Earth or something else almost as exotic took place near Roswell and didn't tell the world about it because they feared losing some income is not sacrifice.

    It's dishonorable in its way.

    That's what Tony is saying....i think.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, May 04, 2013  

  • Kent Jeffrey's synopsis lays out the stupidity of the whole Roswell myth nicely.

    Lance

    By Blogger Lance, at Saturday, May 04, 2013  

  • Rich,

    If that's the crux of Tony's angst, then fine. He should say so, clarify his stance because it did not come off that way to me.

    Honestly, this concern for losing one's pension is a red herring. There are numerous examples of former and retired military personnel who have given statements or written books about there experiences. Those individuals were able to keep their retirement pensions. Quite a few had distinguished careers.

    Case in point, the recent Conference, aka, "Hearings" in DC had the same cast of former military and civilian public servants that have been on the UFO circuit for years. Not one has lost a government pension, that I'm aware of.

    Anyways, thanks for posting my replies. This is one of the few sites that I thoroughly enjoy...next to my own:)

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Saturday, May 04, 2013  

  • You're right, Tim...

    The pension ploy or excuse is a red-herring or diversion.

    These guys don't want to talk for some other reason(s).

    What those reasons might be intrigues.

    But if they do know something profound that the rest of us should know, it's their duty to spill the beans.

    To pretend to know something -- to tease -- and cop out using an excuse of pension loss is shameful.

    And that pension ploy shows up time and time again in the transcripts of phone calls that Tony has with these folks.

    The Roswell scenario is so botched up by so many misdeeds and shenanigans (by alleged or real witnesses, researchers, wannabes, and ne'er do-wells) that we may never be able to know what that temporary hub-bub was about in July 1947, Nick Redfern's stance.

    Thanks for the note about our blog.

    We luv you too, but you know that.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, May 04, 2013  

  • It isn't only the military that were allegedly threatened. What about Sheriff Wilcox and his family? Weren't they also warned about the dire consequences of 'talking'? And we all know about Brazel being held in custody for a week don't we? And so on.....

    Yes RR, I am positive you are right. Nobody, military or civilian, has ever been threatened with death, torture, rendition, loss of pension, having their children or mothers-in-law taken into custody, their aunts & uncles burnt at the stake, or being buried in the desert and turned into dogfood (or catfood either).

    All such tales are so dotty as to be laughable.

    They merely add to the silliness of, and make a mockery of, the whole Roswell affair.

    By Blogger cda, at Saturday, May 04, 2013  

  • There were those threatened at the time of the incident. Most certainly: http://ufocon.blogspot.com/2008/10/roswell-intimidator-by-anthony-bragalia.html

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Sunday, May 05, 2013  

  • Citizens, militaries and so on are threatened, menaced by the Ogre:
    The US Air Force and some others USA Gouvernement malevolents.

    excepted our modern heroes: the Roswell mythologists, from Friedman to Bragalia, from 1978 to today.
    They have a special card, you know and nothing is intented against them by the Ogre and the malevolents from more than 3 decades now...

    That's one more of the Roswell myth paradoxes among many others.

    Applause our modern heroes, please, the Roswell ufologists.

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Friday, May 10, 2013  

  • Yes I most certainly agree the incident from beginning to this present moment has a feel to it that slips away from our better reasoning about the whole matter with the liquid type metal and the IBEAMS THAT WERE EASLIY BENT ONLY SO FAR AND WOULD NOT BUDGE PAST A FLEXING POINT? The purpose of a staged crash introduction to a higher reality AND or technology that could do much more than jump start a program such as the weapons science programs of any number of countries coming down from world war two tends to defy common circumstance or luck in this incident with the intact vehicle out on the PLANES OF SAN AUGUSTINE. WE ALL ARE SUBJECT TO REVIEW AND SO TO CONSIDER THE REAL INTENT TO STAGE A NUMBER OF SPONSORD CRASH RETRIVIAL MISHAPS THAT MOST LIKLY WERE SAGED INDEED VERY LIKILY STAGED THAN PERHAPS THIS SO CALLED ROSWELL EVENT WILL NEVER BE RESOLVED IN TIME TO STEM THE ADVANCED PROGRAMS NOW BEING INTRODUCED ON LINE THAT VERY WELL MIGHT HAVE BY DESIGN BEEN THE OBJECTIVE THIS OFF THE PLANET PROGRAM HAS BEEN MANIPULATING IN THESE STAGED CRASHES OF ITS ADVANCED VEHICLES.A RAWIN SONDE? IT WAS NOT A WEATHER BALLOON EVEN THOUGH EVEN THOUGH THE TAPE WITH PRETTY FLOWERS WAS A STEEL AND THE BALSA WOOD? WHO WOULD THINK THE ET'S WOULD HAVE SOMETHING SIMILER HOWEVER LIGHTER THAN BALSA BUT STRONGER THAN ANYTHING WE COULD BRING FORTH TO COMPARE THESE LITTLE I BEAMS IN STRENTH TO. WE CANNOT RETINK OR BEGIN TO MAKE SOME CALLS FOR HUMANITY UNTIL HUMANITY IS INFORMED AS TO WHAT HAS HAPPENED AND WHAT MIGHT BE STANDING BEFORE HER IN TERMS OF WHAT WE OUR DOING WITH THE OVERALL REALITY OF THIS STAGED EVENT INTRODUCTION CONDEMNATION THREW FALSE REASONING WE BETTER WAKE UP AND FACE REALITY THE INTIRE PLANET OF HOMO SAPIENS TO BOOT! WELL ANYWAY c h e e r s <<<<<<

    By Blogger Mark Moore, at Sunday, August 03, 2014  

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