UFO Conjecture(s)

Friday, May 31, 2013

The Study of UFOs

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UFOs are a peripheral phenomenon within human life, but it is also an obsession for some and an annoyance for others.

Visitors here come from the obsessed crowd and the annoyed crowd.

Some understand UFOs to be intrinsically extraneous to practical human existence but enjoy the phenomenon as a curiosity, as a kind of hobby.

And there are ways to look at the phenomenon that eludes those annoyed by the mystery.

Bruce Duensing (and PurrlGurrl while silent lately) think studying Roswell is a total waste of time.

However, Roswell, even though incapable of providing a UFO explanation it seems, is grist for attention.

The alleged 1947 incident remains open to scrutiny, as questions remain about what exactly happened that summer.

Just as chroniclers continue to look at events in history or astronomers and physicists look back at the origin of the Universe, those fascinated by the minor enigma of UFOs hark back to old UFO sightings.

It’s a hobby, as I’ve noted.

Mr. Duensing, and others, would wish those who see value in old events to shut up.

They are annoyed that others find the topic of old flying saucer accounts interesting.

Bruce and his compatriots would censure or censor chroniclers of old UFO sightings.

This, I’ve called elsewhere, is the fascistic approach.

For those who see Roswell as a useless mythology – Gilles Fernandez -- seem to forget that the study of a mythology can be interesting and even beneficial in many ways, toward understanding the human condition.

Mythologists, such as Carl Jung. Mircea Eliade, and Joseph Campbell, made it their life to study the myths of the past.

While Roswell may not compare to the Greek gods or the Indian pantheon, it does contain elements that clarify, somewhat, how mankind goes about creating its truths.

Embedded in older UFO sightings may be clues as to what UFOs are.

Although Ken Arnold’s sighting, Roswell, Aztec, the Hills abduction, and many others have been filtered by a myriad of scavengers, there remains, possibly, a residue of data or information which may prove to be enlightening in a number of ways.

Roswell is an event composed of several areas of interest such as how people come to remember, how the news media works, how the military operates, et cetera,

Trying to censure those of us interested in Roswell, even as goofy as that may be, strikes me as pathologically controlling.

If some people don’t wish to read about Roswell or other old UFO sightings, they need merely to shun blogs such as this.

If David Rudiak wants to conjecture about Roswell or the Ramey memo, let him.

Who are we to deny him his attentive research?

Kevin Randle’s Dream Team aggravates many. But why? Is the Team wasting the time or monies of others?

Lance Moody, CDA, and Gilles would curb Mr. Randle and his colleague if they could, stating that Roswell is a lie, a myth, or a confabulated hoax.

So what if it is? As noted above, there is value in studying Roswell from a number of angles or disciplines.

What is this fascistic need to keep us, here, from pursuing a topic that has interested since our childhood?

Yes, UFOs are peripheral to the practical life and the topic has ruined some lives by taking hold of a person’s life or livelihood.

But the freedom to be obsessed or stupid is granted to all.

Hoping that the silly among us will behave according to the dictates of those needing to control or small society, rubs me the wrong way.

So, let us behave and think openly, allowing those with whom we part ways, to have their fun and interests ,without strictures that try to compress thought, no matter how nutty that thought seems to be.

Is that too much to ask?

RR 

29 Comments:

  • I agree with you Rich. I find myself reading less frequently and posting much less for some of the reasons you list.

    For me, I'm happier to sit back and see people discuss what they want to. If that's Roswell, so be it.

    The bickering and debating has gone on for decades and has an existence almost independent of the ufological grist.

    Maybe it's just you and me, but I would enjoy seeing more respect from the 'warring' sides for each other. As such, it'd be more honest to see someone admitting a puzzling mystery from time to time rather than grumbling or being dogmatic. Likewise, when a 'credible' witness is shown to be quite the opposite, it's no big concession to acknowledge the point.

    I mention no names as the issues span decades and our own moments will pass just as surely as the '50s personalities have. I'm reminded of a Macbeth solilquy, but soap opera is a more accurate analogy; we're just actors in a long-running soap-opera.

    'So, let us behave and think openly, allowing those with whom we part ways, to have their fun and interests ,without strictures that try to compress thought, no matter how nutty that thought seems to be.

    Is that too much to ask?'

    You know it is! Let's see how the next Socorro or Roswell post goes over or anticipate the next 'nutty thought.'

    By Blogger Kandinsky, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • For those who see Roswell as a useless mythology – Gilles Fernandez -- seem to forget that the study of a mythology can be interesting and even beneficial in many ways, toward understanding the human condition.

    Hello Rich,

    I like you, but time to time, you have imho the tendancy to put words in the mouth of others (at least me in this case) I have never used.

    I have never stated Roswell or UFOlogy is/are an useless mythology. That's very instructive a contrario (regarding the cognitive and narrative processings involved in UFO/IFO cases, to state only one example).

    IFOlogy, psychology, astronomy, and many other disciplines already existing, the study of "Litterature" like Science-Fiction, Teosophy, Theology, etc. where all elements regarding UFO matter (abductions included) were ALREADY present, etc. only conduct some of us in Francophony (at least me, as a "defender" of the SPH) to considerate that the ETH is becomed now "useless" to explain UFO or residual cases.

    If I have used somewhere "useless", it is probably regarding ETH as the better candidat to explain UFO. I find the ETH now useless to explain UFO.
    So UFO (Roswell included then) is in my point of you, a fabulous and very interresting material for Human Sciences, then absolutly NOT useless. Probably, you see the difference even if I believed to have been clear by the past.

    Concerning Roswell, "I" will not point again or enter in a steril debat :
    a) Why I'm skeptical about the ETH concerning the case, and why I favorize the SPH to explain UFO in general.
    b) Why I have the opinion the case is something closed to a retrospective falsification ( http://skepdic.com/retfalse.html ).
    c) Why I have the opinion balloons + radar-targets is the best candidat to explain the case, until proven otherwise (scientific evidence).

    Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence, and Roswell is fare away this "stage" I think (until proven otherwise).

    Regards,

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • Thanks for the clarification, Gilles.

    You remain un homme affable.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • If you read my comments my criticism was based on the how the posting was written, not so much the subject matter, and the subject matter is subject to kudos and brickbats, which can be of several reasons for commenting but to characterize them as fascistic strikes me as nonsensical. We all receive criticism and kudos and I don't mind receiving them if they are sincere.
    We all, at times can have thin skins, and I include myself at the top of the list. When I said the blog was in a rut, if you look at the interesting variety of takes you have had on the past on this phenomenon, Roswell of late has become a one note symphony. As a reader who enjoyed this blog, the Roswell material seems to have muted your keen intellect and your infatuation with the Dream Team is like an old score to be settled with an archivists perspective, which now counts for 99% of activity in the field as it were, which I think, (and again I am being honest) relegates one of the definitive mysteries of our lifetime to a hobby. Its the only game in town as sad as I think that is. So, I will keep my opinions on Roswell to myself. Message received and I am fine with that.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • Bruce:

    Your critique -- that the Roswell posting has become tiresome -- in a rut, as you say -- is okay with me.

    My feeling, also, is that Roswell has become hackneyed.

    But the alleged "new evidence" brings it back to the front burner, which you'd see if the Dream Team outs it.

    Asking or suggesting, no matter how nicely written, that one should push Roswell back to the rear of the bus is a suggestion to stifle, which seems premature to me.

    The topic may not interest you, nor many others, but there are still a few Roswell aficionados around.

    Should we muzzle them because you (or I) have had enough of Roswell?

    I think that is fascistic -- not Fascistic -- just fascistic.

    Criticizing my approach is fine, so long as it isn't a mask for closing down a subject matter that one finds annoying.

    That's my point.

    If I thought your remarks were off-base or offensive, they wouldn't have appeared online.

    Your opinion is always interesting, to me, anyway.

    I wouldn't censure it, even though some would wish that I do so.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • I don't know who "some are" but if you did censure my responses I guess the "fascists" would have triumphed which is fine by me, I don't invest a great deal in others opinions of me unless they are misinformed.
    I simply said I was bored with the subject. That seems to be taken as my own death wish for the subject which it is not. I suggest that are many more interesting aspects of the phenomenon you have covered in the past. It has nothing to do with you or anyone else personally it has to do everything with the nadir of the subject which has become an archivists hobby. If one disagrees with my opinion, then fine. I am not offended by opinion alone. I would be interested in knowing the opinions of some who wish me censured without giving their names. I find that interesting and not a cause for umbrage. I have to let the dogs in, and life goes on, with or without me. I never considered my opinion that important outside of being able to express it.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • The persons who would censure you, Bruce, would also censure me.

    I received three such requests yesterday alone, not adding them to the comment pile, but for one.

    Some don't like the popularity of this blog.

    Others are jealous of the content.

    A few are just sh*ts -- one using our words and ideas for comments elsewhere -- Kevin Randle's blog for instance.

    It's the nature of the beast I guess.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • I do not think you should even hint at the Roswell 'revelations to come'. The reason is that you don't, in your heart, really believe that it will amount to anything.

    At least that is my conclusion.

    The book Gilles referred to by Saler, Ziegler & Moore looks at the whole case from a socio/psychological view and treats it very well. Of course DR does his best to downplay it (especially Moore's chapter). But nobody else in the pro-ET camp, as far as I know, ever mentions this book. It is as though the book never existed. Yet it is, or ought to be, required reading for everyone interested in Roswell, or Aztec, or cases of a similar genre.

    The Dream Team's discovery, whatever it consists of, will change nothing. It may have a temporary impact, but it will, as sure as the sun rises tomorrow, fade away as just another false alarm. Do you not sense this already?

    Meanwhile, as I have said before, the world science fraternity and the US military, will be wholly unimpressed and will continue as before.

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • All true, CDA, but doesn't the ongoing Roswell foolishness keep the Dream Team boys out of important areas of life they would be inclined to muck up if they had a chance?

    And, yes, I imagine the "new evidence" will not take us very far.

    That's my impression thus far anyway.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • No, the "Roswell foolishness" does not necessarily keep these DT boys out of important areas of life. For all I know they may be very efficient at their everyday work and in pursuing other other matters of interest.

    They are perfectly entitled to spend their time & money on UFOs and Roswell in particular, as long as they bear in mind that their efforts have got nowhere and will get nowhere, and neither the governments of the world nor the scientific establishment is the least interested.

    Look at the recent 'Disclosure Group' hearings, for example.

    However, I am merely repeating myself.

    By Blogger cda, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • Repeating ourselves is a trait of our ages, CDA.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • Roswell is viewed by its investigators through the lens of the ETH. They're essentially out to prove the ETH, not to objectively investigate what really happened even if the investigation uncovers it was a purely terrestrial event.

    We keep being told there is no other side to the Roswell coin than crashed aliens and anybody who says otherwise is a skeptibunking skeptoid or a government disinformation agent (e.g., the Air Force, those bastards).

    I don't know about you, but in my world coins come with two sides.

    I no longer put much stock in the ETH anyway, but now rather see it as one of a very wide range of possibilities explaining reported UFO phenomena.

    So, I'm rapidly losing interest in ETH-slanted material, especially when science keeps demonstrating daily that the reality we live in contains much more exotic, strange and spooky things than bug-eyed aliens driving around in a 1950s fantasy of what a flying car of the future looks like.

    I'm bored with rehashing 50 and 60 year-old cases. Endlessly plowing depleted fields isn't going to increase their yield. We’ve already gotten the most we’re ever going to get from them.

    What more can I say? My interest in UFOs, at least as alien spaceships, is really waning.

    By Blogger purrlgurrl, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • I do not disagree with you PG....

    The flying saucer sightings of yesteryear seemed to indicate extraterrestrial visitations.

    But as the years have progressed, that explanation seems wanting.

    And everyone who is semi-conscious is bored of Roswell.

    It's a repast that has dulled the senses.

    But there is meat on that Roswell bone, just not ET meat perhaps, but sociological meat.

    Gilles mentions a book about Roswell that UFO mavens would do well to read, and the section on Roswell in the Ronald Story book noted in my post, written by Randall Fitzgerald and taken from his book "Cosmic Test Tube" is a real eye-opener -- making clear much of the whole Roswell debacle.

    The problem for me has been the alleged find -- the "new evidence" the Dream Team has come across.

    It startles because it was a part of the Aztec story but has a provenance that puts it in Roswell in 1947 and not Aztec in 1948.

    What's going on here?

    A small mystery but an intriguing one, for some of us....some.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • I'd love to see a sociologist, social psychologist, or cultural anthropologist do a serious study of the creation of the Roswell myth and it's impact on contemporary beliefs and culture (it's great fodder for a social science PhD dissertation, don't ya think?). Now that's a Roswell publication I'd buy for sure.

    The Dream Team? No thanks. Aztec v. Roswell? So what? I mean really all 1940s flying saucer crashes look the same to me :)

    By Blogger purrlgurrl, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • So, let piece this together

    Brazel finds unusual (Mogul) debris on ranch, As a result of rumours swirling around the army base and environs relating to a crashed 'flying saucer' he thinks he may have something exotic.

    Those rumours in fact were the result of an actual crash of an ET vehicle elsewhere a few days earlier. The press release was contrived as a way of ending the speculation by attributing the rumours to misidentified prosaic materials, and ensuring that any subsequent snooping by the public would take place far away from the actual recovery site.

    The crashed object resembled a ray fish rather than a saucer.

    By Blogger Ross Evans, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • The craft, if there was one, Ross, is as Scully described it in his book.

    The craft is secondary.

    What is relevant is what or who flew a craft.

    The rest of your scenario is right on the button.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 31, 2013  

  • Dear purrlgurrl and all,

    One again, if you are interrested by anthropologists / Human Sciences point of view, "buy" the book I mentionned before :
    http://vserver1.cscs.lsa.umich.edu/~crshalizi/reviews/ufo-crash-at-roswell/

    Awesome Paul Kimball released and shared a collector (for me) 3 years ago where one the author, Benson Saler, is interviewed. I hot recommend to listen the interview, divided in 3 parts, you can find in Paul's blog:

    Part 1: http://redstarfilms.blogspot.fr/2010/04/dr-benson-saler-roswell-and-making-of.html

    Part 2: http://redstarfilms.blogspot.fr/2010/04/benson-saler-roswell-and-making-of.html

    Part 3: http://redstarfilms.blogspot.fr/2010/04/dr-benson-saler-roswell-and-making-of_27.html

    Best Regards,

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Saturday, June 01, 2013  

  • The article found here http://www.physics.smu.edu/pseudo/UFOs/Scully/Cahn1.pdf is interesting on a number of related issues , Mrs Scully's involvement and Newton's photos of the Aztec/Roswell crash. I wonder if this is the "new evidence" the dream team have seen, like a "large beach umbrella on its side". Given the related account of the composition of the materials Newton had, the probability of these photos being a hoax are incredibly high, but a modern analysis should be able to determine wether these will be "very historical photographs someday" or turn out to be just another scam aimed at the vulnerable who want to believe.

    By Blogger Chainsofthesea, at Saturday, June 01, 2013  

  • Chains..

    The "new evidence" isn't a photo of a craft.

    The Scully-presented photo of a "ship" is interesting, even if a hoax, but it isn't what I've been hinting at.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, June 01, 2013  

  • Rich,

    Given your previous post it reads like we are going to be debating a photo that contains an image of , for want of a better term , a grey alien. So I guess we need to think about ways to authenticate or rebuke a reported Alien image. Is the image clear enough to cause a mainstream media interest do you know?

    By Blogger Chainsofthesea, at Saturday, June 01, 2013  

  • I am glad to see PG and CDA weighing in and I think what this post highlighted was the differences between criticism and censorship, between boredom and curiosity, and I think whatever side of the fence one happens to be on, I think the fact that this mystery has proved implacable and wearing on the intellect is evident, if one is has the illusion in mind that one case will solve all cases, as if solving one murder solves them all, and Roswell is a microcosm of what we knew of science more than a half century ago and science has moved on. Roswell cannot be taken out of the context it occurred in as it is as much a product of it's time as it is prone to endless archival probing which seems to be the only game in town as far as activity concerning the nature of this ongoing global phenomenon. What was once the era of Hynek , McDonald, Vallee, Keel, etc is now looking at this mystery as past tense, where there are many many cases still occurring. I won't say that the Dream Team has it's head buried in the sand, but the whole effort seems somewhat self serving, attempting to revise mistakes of the past. Personally, I don't think the damage can be undone.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Saturday, June 01, 2013  

  • Chains:

    I am not privy to exactly to some of the details about what has been found but I do know it seems significant enough to some of the Dream Team members for them to pursue it further and thoroughly.

    I'll address the matter more, if I get permission to do so.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, June 01, 2013  

  • Bruce:

    Yes, the Dream Team's modus is based upon, in part, correcting past mis-steps.

    But it is also, for them, a pursuit of a mystery they are absorbed by.

    Yes, it's an old mystery, but you have to get over eschewing it for that reason.

    Many past mysteries are at the top of researchers' agendas.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, June 01, 2013  

  • I think one reason so many folks who place a great deal of attention to long gone events ( and this is not a criticism) is that they are thumbtacked to the ground and are less pliable in terms of their more material nature within circumstantial evidence which is second or third hand. Even so,it does remind me of history or archaeological buffs or aficionados. That is not a criticism. My general sense is all of this in the broad sense, is spiritually minded whether one cares to admit it or not ( not in a theological sense) that in a way has nothing to do to do with any real material insight, other than the possibility of a revelation that falls prey to the doctrine of belief systems. The question is..if and when the "Dream Team" is done, what is left? That in of itself will be an apt future topic. Perhaps they then can return to the present.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Saturday, June 01, 2013  

  • Bruce, perhaps it's an attempt to redefine or reshape history as we wish it to have been?

    There is the "benevolent" factor for some, the phenomena is/was supposed to lead us in the "right" direction towards cooperation and harmony, a searching deep within ourselves (our souls?)...current and past world events place that theory in serious doubt.

    It's easier to pass judgement on the past than tackle the reality of the present and future. Hence our infatuation with Roswell and other cases. (I plead guilty on my small part with the cases that I blog about)

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Saturday, June 01, 2013  

  • Merci, Gilles. I'm trying to locate a copy now.

    RR, are you thinking what I'm thinking? Dare I say it out loud? Here goes. The Dream Team's new piece of evidence doesn't hold up to even semi-serious scrutiny and there is no other evidence to support a flying saucer crash, just more different versions of the same old hearsay crap we've been hearing for decades.

    All the rest of the innuendo and back story swirling around what's going on is likely just so much smoke. The wagons are being circled to protect Ufology's "Holy Grail", an insupportable ETH explanation for Roswell. They first need to find a spin to put on it to make it palatable to a least of couple of newbies and semi-believers and, hopefully, the media.

    As for Redfern, he's probably sick of taking hits for his Roswell book and has backed away from the topic. After all, he can't afford to burn his paranormal bridges and alienate possible future UFO sources. He even might be thinking of revisiting Roswell after The Dream Team regurgitates whatever it has stuck in its throat.

    By Blogger purrlgurrl, at Saturday, June 01, 2013  

  • The links above, concerning Benson Saler interview done by Paul Kimball are dead.

    Paul Kimball "back-up" the interview and made it available in YouTube, yesterday.

    Many Thanks to him!!

    The link is :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaaKOlK8IrM&feature=youtu.be

    Enjoy!

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Sunday, June 02, 2013  

  • I give Roswell researchers / buffs a bit of stick from time to time, but they're not harming anyone, and as Dr. Saler notes in his interview (from 12 years ago - egads, was I ever that young??), if one can leave aside the "space aliens are definitely here and crashed" dogma, the "Roswell Incident" is quite interesting as a piece of American popular culture. It says a lot of things about the times in which we live, and like any good myth it's malleable. To paraphrase a recent superhero film, the current iteration of Roswell may not be the myth we need, but it is the myth we deserve.

    Paul

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Sunday, June 02, 2013  

  • It was -some time ago- that –these- personages lived and quarreled. Good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

    -- William Thackeray, Barry Lyndon

    By Blogger UFO DNA, at Tuesday, June 04, 2013  

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