UFO Conjecture(s)

Sunday, June 09, 2013

Aztec is Roswell: Photo Evidence

Copyright 2013, InterAmerica, Inc.
The Scully story of an Aztec flying saucer “landing” (accident) in Behind the Flying Saucers was actually a recounting of the Roswell incident in 1947, but that was unbeknownst to Frank Scully when he was told the story – as I’ve outlined in a previous post.

Alleged photos of alien bodies have circulated widely.

This in material about Wilbert Smith from:

In the rest of the interview Wilbert Smith discusses what the aliens look like, the effect of the extraterrestrial idea on religion, secrecy, and a number of other topics. It should be noted in the interview that Wilbert Smith never used the word UFO. This is because from the very beginning Smith was aware that the phenomena was extraterrestrial, and that UFO was a word developed by the U.S.A.F. in 1952 to muddy the waters for investigators. According to Smith’s son Jim Smith, shortly before his death in 1962 Wilbert called his son in, and told him that he had in fact seen the alien bodies from a crash, and had been shown a crashed flying saucer outside of Washington D.C., while conducting the official Canadian investigation.

And this about Wilbert’s son, Jim from:

According to his son Jim, Wilbert Smith was not entirely discarded by all the forces of Government. Some shadow elements kept in touch with him and often employed him in their covert UFO-based endevours; this included several “Roswells” (See: http://hpanwo.blogspot.com/2008/03/roswells-galore.html) and Jim, in the same way as Jesse Marcel Jr, once handled a part of the wreckage of a crashed UFO, the “Ottawa Piece”. Smith also dealt with the bodies of aliens from the crashes too.

And Alice Scully is reported to have seen photos of alien bodies (which she, like her husband, thought were from an the purported Aztec crash of 1948).

Scully reported that the Air Force had taken film of the crashed saucer (in Aztec) on Page 43 of his book, the paperback edition.

Now a new set of photos has surfaced, taken, surreptitiously by a geologist who, with geological team members, stumbled upon an Army mop-up of an “accident” north of Roswell in July 1947.

That geologist went to work of Silas Newton, to whom he showed the photos, and who either concocted the questionable fraud scheme he and Leo GeBauer were indicted for, using Aztec as the site of the photos or who created the Aztec story as a deflection from Roswell, at the insistence of the Air Force with whom he had collaborations.

(The latter is what I surmised really happened and the Air Force sank Newton and GeBauer to keep hidden the Roswell-by-way-of-Aztec secret(s).

Do the photos prove conclusively that some alien/extraterrestrial bodies where seen outside of Roswell in 1947 and photos were taken of it or them?

The photos seem to have a proven provenance of 1947.

The geologist was in the Roswell area in July 1947, with other geologists.

That geologist did go to work for Silas Newton.

And credible people have seen the photos, then and now.

Once all the “facts” are in, you should be able to see the “Aztec is Roswell” scenario more clearly.

For now, the matter rests with those who discovered that some interesting photos have been found, in a place and with people connected to Roswell and Silas Newton.

It’s now up to them to flesh out the story for the UFO community – before the general public gets their hands on the tale and makes hash of it, not knowing the subtle vicissitudes of both the Roswell and Aztec accounts.




  • this latest blogpost is certainly a close fit with Vallee's control system theory

    By Blogger Chuck Finley, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • hello Rich,

    so this is the new evidence!
    new pictures dated back to 1947!
    I trust your nose: what do you think about this new evidence? are we facing a turning point in ufology?
    great job!

    By Blogger ilfakiro, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • The 1961 interview with Wilbert Smith sounds very much like an interview with George Adamski.

    Smith, like Adamski, possesses certain knowledge passed to him by his contacts which he is not free to disclose to us, at least not yet (meaning never).

    Smith, like Adamski, has seen and handled ET hardware.

    Smith, like Adamski, knows something about alien technology and the principles of UFO propulsion. (But of course he aint telling us).

    Smith, as Adamski, is working with scientists (and has heard of other scientists) who either know the truth about UFOs or are working assiduously to get at this truth, under government budgets.

    Both are contactees, though in different forms. Smith did his by telepathy. Adamski did his by face-to-face meetings.

    Smith saw a crashed UFO (actually he only really saw a small fragment of one). Adamski saw an intact landed UFO, several in fact.

    There is one big difference. Adamski, unlike Smith, never wrote what purports to be a TOP SECRET document. Also I do not think Smith ever got a visit from the FBI, as did Adamski, at least twice. But maybe the FBI don't operate in Canada.

    Both were inflated by their own egos. They were the chosen ones, you see.

    You can draw your own conclusions.

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • "Once all the “facts” are in, you should be able to see the “Aztec is Roswell” scenario more clearly."

    I am glad you put the relevant words in quotes because I am far from convinced that people will see that 'Aztec is Roswell'. I fully expect that the new discoveries will muddy the Aztec and Roswell waters more than ever. And that some ufologists will have fierce debates over it, whilst others will ignore it completely.

    We shall see.

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • Well the 'facts' are in. Man it's worse than I thought. I don't know about Aztec and Roswell, but I do see that all this time Rich Reynolds and Steven Greer are the same person after all! Or is Greer just too harsh, how about Bragalia? Yeah ok Bragalia and Rich are the same person. Well the signs have been there for awhile.

    Actually Roswell and Aztec do have a common foundation, as do all 'saucer crash sites' that are not. Their shared mythology is all rooted in the same sociological and cultural needs. Nothing more than that, nothing less than that. I mean it's interesting as far as it goes...

    Now I'm going off to post at a more skeptical hard-headed UFO forum, like AboveTopSecret. No I am not kidding.

    Rich I take back all those nice things I ever said about your UFO blogging. Oh well thanks for putting me on to Caravacas's important work, appreciated. That's about it.

    Actually Rich my advice to you to save your reputation that now is gone with the wind: pretend you were just kidding all along, when this Smith crap goes the way of the 'Roswell alien on a mortuary lab' film. You were just carrying out a psychological experiment to see how gullible people could be. Or some such.

    I wonder if you will let this through moderation?

    By Blogger Lawrence, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • Ah, Lawrence...

    You are quick to judge.

    You remember that story about the 6 blind wise men asked to describe an elephant that they got to feel a portion of?

    One thought the elephant was like a tree. one thought it like a snake, and each had an incorrect evaluation because they couldn't envision the whole thing -- the whole elephant.

    You must wait for the whole puzzle to appear -- after the pieces are all -- and I mean all -- laid out.

    Then you shall get it.

    A psychological experiment? Not quite, but ....


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  



    I assure you that I am not Rich Reynolds. Go to my LinkedIn. I am a management consultant in FL. And like Nick Redfern and Jose Carvacas, I am simply a contributor to his blog.

    Additionally I completely disavow any knowledge that "Aztec is Roswell" or that I -or anyone- discovered that someone went to work for Silas Newton. Simply not true- and there is not a shred of evidence for any of this. I do not believe in the Aztec crash, period and RR knows this.

    I would hold suspect everything in this piece as speculation.

    Look up Robert Spencer Carr. In fact, a new book by a team member is going to show conclusively that this mentally ill man nearly single-handedly perpetuated the myth.

    This is all that I will say on this matter.


    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • Anthony writes:

    "I do not believe in the Aztec crash, period"

    Of course, there was no Aztec crash.

    It's Roswell masquerading as Aztec.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • @Chuck Finley

    What has this blogpost to do with Vallees control system ttheory???

    By Blogger Michael Mu, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • Rich's theory, you have to admit, is very intriguing and well-built. if what Rich posted today will be confirmed, and the loud silence of KR seems to me a confirmation, this is the new of the year.

    By Blogger ilfakiro, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • Photographs (as we all know) can be faked and weighing a photograph with circumstantial evidence, especially an arms length collaboration of evidence missing versus I say this or that and someone in effect affirms so and so said that reminds me of family traditions as verbal transmissions of knowledge which have been known to get embedded whether the actual history conformed to the story or not.
    I can see why shopping these around has failed to stir anyone's hard cash out of their pockets. I could cover a mannequin with a blanket and even if the photograph is verified to be of the correct date then what?
    The intelligence services have muddied the water so deeply that it does not mean a Canadian could not be duped.
    I had some hopes for "new evidence" as I still retain a open mind, but while mildly intriguing, frankly it's just more of the same.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • BTW..
    I think one of the aspects of the Dream Team that I find irksome is that each of them are intelligent and dogged investigators , whom, if they turned their time and energy to other, more recent cases have a reasonable chance of , if not solving, then shedding some light on other anomalies that are less rigged, so to speak and I mean rigged or manipulated to death regardless of the veracity of the alleged event.
    This to me is me is common sense, nevertheless there is a sort of a quixotic romance to lost causes, perhaps even nostalgia for "simpler" story lines. The case of Jesse Marcel Jr and the absurd bendable metal trick comes to mind, where most are naive about this tale, he is either lying or telling the truth..no one considers they may have been duped. Much grander examples of red herrings and planted false flags exist as facts.
    In that case they were neither lying or telling the truth.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • Bruce...

    The problem for many (of us) who hark back to Roswell, Socorro, et cetera, is that today's UFO sightings have little meat on them.

    There are no reports of beings debarking as is the case with many of Senor Caravaca's listings for us.

    There are no beings on the ground as Lonnie Zamora reported.

    There is no "debris" or bodies as Roswell relates.

    Today's UFOs are evanescent and without substance or bizarre attributes that tantalize the imagination.

    There are two books about The Hidden Face of God (by Richard Elliott Friedman and/or Gerald L. Schroeder) which examine the disappearance of God. not just in our lives but in fact.

    That's how it is with UFOs; they have disappeared, substantively.

    Thus there is nothing to intellectually chew on.

    It, also, as you intuit, a kind of nostalgia; for me it is, and for CDA too I think -- we like to dwell in the fantasies of our youth when flying saucers were mysterious and otherworldly, even as we now recognize that it was all (pretty much) hokum.

    Yes, that's Freudian material perhaps, but there it is.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • Rich
    I would respectfully disagree that sightings and events in the present don't have meat on the bones. You have to bear in mind that the meat of Roswell or Aztec is all ephemeral except in the minds of those to whom it appeals for whatever reason. You could also add it has a certain snowball effect as it has, if anything , a overpowering convoluted series of parallel tales which then become an axis of focus in of themselves, which has a sort of wistful dime store detective aura about it..not to be disrespectful but it sometimes reminds me of the Hardy Boys or Nancy Drew. It makes for entertaining reading and as you said, a peripheral past time. Nothing more, nothing less. Which brings up another aspect, insularity, creating safe harbor for self referential "factoids" which often have no context except those which have been created by simple speculative noodling.
    The actual phenomenon i suspect has more to do with PSI than spacemen that opens up a fresh approach and there is meat on that bone versus spacemen on a pointless mission. But again, who is fishing or simply cutting bait?

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • Bruce...

    I don't disagree with you.

    Roswell, Socorro, et al. have acquired a mythical encrustation, but present day sightings have not.

    UFOs are ephemeral by their nature it seems....part of the mystery, part of the explanation?

    But thar's gold in them old tales: sociological gold, psychological gold, fictive gold, and other kinds of gold.

    You can't stop some of us from being silly, or worse.

    I know you'd like us all to be rational and intelligent, but that ain't gonna happen.

    It's ufology....after all, as Gilles reminds us.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • The idea of UFO believers hanging onto hope that some spectacular revelation is just around the corner has become a hackneyed cliche.

    In 1994, in his excellent book, Watch the Skies, Curtis Peebles called one of the chapters "'Before the Year is Out...'" in reference to the pious belief of saucer buffs that their outer space rapture was just around the corner.

    Of course we see the same thing in other paranormal sects: Bigfoot, for instance.

    This undoubtedly relates back to the basic problem of all paranormal claims: the evidence sucks.

    Unfortunately, as Festinger demonstrated, the cognitive dissonance after a failed prediction (and hey, industry secret: they all fail!) causes the more invested to double down on the fantasy.

    So anyway, I won't be holding my breath for these photos, Rich. Unless you think I should...


    By Blogger Lance, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • From my perspective Senor Caravaca's postings are intriguing but lack substantive detail in their investigative domain and so they become lumped with "UFO's" by default, and whereas he believes we are being manipulated, I think we are given the opportunity to manipulate ourselves with our own vocabulary. I just did a piece on meaningful coincidence and synchronicity surrounding John Mack's death and I think meaningful coincidence is a broad hint at something more specific that has no regard for helpful or manipulation, that is to say, the physics of information. No anthropomorphism there outside of the observer. Same for other, more intriguing events.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • Lance:

    I'm not holding my breath either.

    I'm getting feedback condemning my even mentioning such a thing as photos.

    It seems that there are keepers of the keys and I (or you and others) are not among that group.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • Rich,

    Your original post we are commented here, have been edited (Need screenshoots?) and comments erased despite accepted by yourself AND commented by yourself.
    It points how UFO narrative frames are depending on the interraction(s) - privates? - between UFO medias (your blog, i.e.) and UFOmythmakers directives.

    That's very interresting for an humble cognitive psychologist to see and to be a witness of such "arrangements" in the narrative processings of an UFO myth.

    I'm very awaiting such photos to be released (or dunno what you are the trailer for some weeks now) to be examined by "forensic" forces.

    Or maybe DT is affraid of Forensic forces ? Who knows?


    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • Yes, Gilles,

    There are those who would control the UFO narrative, and I don't mean governments.

    For me, information is to open and shared with sensible caveats, as I've said in my comments about Wikileaks.

    For my narrative here, I have three credible sources, One was worried that I had betrayed his confidence but the information I deleted came, not from him, but from another source.

    But it seems, he may have given that very information to my other source who gave it to me.

    I will say this -- Kevin Randle's Dream Team appears to want to control what they find and manipulate it to suit their agenda, which I feel is not a complete reveal of the "facts" or truth.

    What I have written and what you find that has been deleted -- to accommodate a buddy -- is what I know to be the case. It's what's really gone on and is going on.

    Unfortunately, what we have that pertains to Roswell is being controlled by an outside whose agenda is not truth but money.

    As it stands I will be hesitant to say more, but that is only so good for so long.

    What I know, you visitor here should know.

    You can make the determination then of what is valuable and what is not.

    At least you, Gilles, got to see what I had online and my comment about it.

    Remember it, as it will be back before us when this whole mess is brought forward, in the open, for all to scrutinize: skeptics, believers, fanatics, trouble-makers......everyone.

    Not just a few.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • No problem, Rich.

    As I say many times, I'm so lucky to be the witness of a modern myth!


    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • Merci beaucoup, mon ami.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, June 09, 2013  

  • Can you describe what the photos show, only ET bodies or the full crashed craft?

    By Blogger Michael Mu, at Monday, June 10, 2013  

  • No Michael..

    No photos of a craft.

    If you go back through all that has been written along with the comments, you will find what I am suggesting.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, June 10, 2013  

  • RRRGroup,

    Some pertinent questions I've not seen asked

    1. Have you seen this photographic evidence?

    2. Is what is shows significant enough to stand alone, outside of any specific ties to New Mexico in 1947?

    By Blogger Ross Evans, at Monday, June 10, 2013  

  • Ross:

    I have not seen any photographs.

    My information comes from three credible, reliable sources.

    Unfortunately I have been asked to refrain from raising the issue further, as I may jeopardize any chance of the new evidence being made public.

    I doubt that however.

    But, again, to assuage those seeking to get their hands on the material, I shall keep my mouth shut....for now.

    One last thing though -- I don't think the evidence will answer anything for skeptics.

    It is substantive stuff for Roswell ET believers perhaps, but those who need proof positive -- me included -- will not be swayed by what may be forthcoming.

    And let me note here that I don't give a good goddam abut the thing or things being ballyhooed.

    I merely see a Roswell connection to the Aztec story.

    Aztec aficionados disagree but why wouldn't they?

    Their ufological careers rise or fall on the Aztec tale just as many Roswell believers' ufological careers are dependent upon proving their ET leanings are true.

    Aztec was Roswell, dolled up by a few fellows for the reasons I've listed here in other postings.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, June 10, 2013  

  • it's a very unusual situation: we have a big scandal uncovered thanks to a young former cia technician, which on the basis of personal motivations talked about massive spying of american civil communications.
    on the other hand, we have a little group of believers, some of them members of the so called dream team, which want to "manipulate" the release (how and when) of new evidences on the roswell case.
    if this is an accurate reconstruction of events, then my question is: what is the difference between these men and the men who belong to security apparatus?

    By Blogger ilfakiro, at Monday, June 10, 2013  

  • But how can you say, there is no crashed spaceship on the photos when you never see the photos?

    And how could the Geologist take the photos in the presence of the military?

    By Blogger Michael Mu, at Monday, June 10, 2013  

  • PS:

    Look at my avatar, that is a photo of a real Roswell ET!


    By Blogger Michael Mu, at Monday, June 10, 2013  

  • Rich,

    Back on May 21st, when I asked if you had any evidence to support your theorem, i.e., that Aztec is a cover story for Roswell, your answer was “no.” You specifically wrote:

    "Now all this is conjecture, on my part..."

    I replied: “Without any supporting evidence or any evidence for that matter (pertaining to the Aztec-Roswell mishmash), what we have is a campfire story (no offense). Of course many feel that–that describes Ufology as a whole.”

    I concluded: “I'm intrigued by the declarations made in the piece (re the geologist and his pics), and look forward to see where that goes; however, there isn't enough known data (by your own admission) to connect it to Roswell, Aztec or some other event (as we speak).”

    Since that time, nothing has changed, and I felt further comment on my part would be superfluous; however, I see now that you wrote:

    “Aztec aficionados disagree but why wouldn't they?

    Their ufological careers rise or fall on the Aztec tale just as many Roswell believers' ufological careers are dependent upon proving their ET leanings are true.”

    Since you’ve only referenced myself, and Scott Ramsey ala Aztec (in these ongoing posts), I presume your remark was aimed at us, and quite frankly, I’m taken aback and here to say that the statement is absolutely ridiculous (and you of all people, I would think know better).

    To answer the proverbial question you posited, my conclusions, theorems, assessments etc., (of evidence/data) for Aztec (or any case I’m active in) is based on years of research (in this instance), which is dwarfed by Scott’s activity.

    As with any fluid case the interpretations can change (and have) with previous unknown evidence/data being uncovered—this is a given.

    Case in point: when you started this series of posts on Aztec/Roswell, which included point of fact statements, I didn’t pooh-pooh it; I didn’t condemn it because it fell outside of some ideology, I asked questions. The first was if you had any supporting evidence (or any evidence) regarding your claims; is there new data/evidence to consider? Your answer was “no.” In short, I m open to any all previously unknown evidence re Aztec, Roswell etc., if there is any to be had. Moreover, I am always willing to reassess my own findings.

    To suggest that I might disagree with you based on some “ufological career” that is dependent on an ET ideology is just simply nonsensical to be polite and leaves me shaking my dead in bewilderment . . . if it came from someone else, I suppose I would just laugh.


    By Blogger Frank Warren, at Monday, June 10, 2013  

  • No need to take offense or be offended Frank.

    It's just me stirring the waters to an end that I've told you about.

    I have already twisted the knickers of a few UFO folks so I'm trying to hide out for awhile....about Roswell or Aztec,

    They're too incendiary for aficionados.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, June 10, 2013  

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