UFO Conjecture(s)

Saturday, July 06, 2013

A Roswell Dream Team?

If one were to set up a study team to research a UFO incident, say, like Roswell, how would it or should it be done?

First, one would select bona fide experts in psychology, sociology, mineralogy, aircraft engineering, meteorology, military secrecy, and forensics, to cite the obvious categories.

Then, after doling out assignments to the experts, one would establish a regular schedule of meetings by the “team” to hash out what and how they are doing.

Members would set aside extracurricular activities during the team’s sojourn.

That means book and conference tours, book writings, radio and TV appearances and forays into other UFO episodes would be set aside while the “team” concentrated on the project at hand.

A web-site would be established to keep the UFO community apprised of how the team was progressing, and the team’s effort would be ongoing and timely – no delay or dragging of feet, so the project wouldn’t ossify before it came to fruition.

A concentrated/determined end-time would be set to complete the project, insuring that something would be accomplished, if an explanation seemed to be available.

Elements of the Roswell incident that could not be answered or explained would be acknowledged and conjectures about those unanswerable elements could be passed on to those in the UFO community who think Roswell is a topic worthy of continued study.

Roswell does not answer the question of what UFOs are. A real Roswell Dream Team can only clarify what happened in or near Roswell in July 1947.

That episode (or episodes) only pertains to an incident that seems to have little or no bearing on the UFOs of history or the present time.

But if one wants to engage in a refurbished and clean account of the 1947 Roswell event, they would do so to make the record clear, not to ameliorate past investigatory mistakes or to enhance any biases about what Roswell’s event might have been.

Does this seem like what Kevin Randle’s Roswell Dream Team is doing?

You decide.



  • How are we to know what the 'Dream Team' is doing? They have not issued any interim statements, and all we get is rumor and gossip.

    As for expertise in the fields you mention, I presume a few of them are knowledgeable in some of those fields. Problem is that all of them, bar one, are heavily biased towards ETH.

    Not exactly the sort of team we can have much confidence in, is it?

    By Blogger cda, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • I'm as disappointed as anyone, CDA.

    Kevin Randle seems distracted and has tainted his effort(s) by making inane remarks at such venues as The Paracast, not a place with much credibility.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • Per CDA: "As for expertise in the fields you mention, I presume a few of them are knowledgeable in some of those fields. Problem is that all of them, bar one, are heavily biased towards ETH"

    Honestly, how do we know that Randle and Co. are knowledgeable in those fields? There never was an established criteria that is/was rigorously followed by Ufologist.

    Or is it simply a lack of research consistency?

    As far as the bias issue, we all have that luggage to carry around, its the ability to minimize our bias being that total elimination is almost impossible.

    ETH bias? Is that not the default position? Without ET then "studying" UFOs is no more engrossing than spotting orbiting satellites and figuring out country of origin.

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • Tim:

    I don't think any of the Randle "Dream Team" is expert in any of those categories I noted.

    In our small group of visitors here, we have a few persons trained in psychology -- me and Gilles -- and an aircraft engineer -- Larry I think.

    In the Randle group there is Rutkowski, Bragalia, Schmitt (I hope that's the spelling), Carey, and Rudiak.

    Rudiak is trained in optometry.

    The Randle Team is a hodgepodge of self-appointed "experts" in Ufology, only.

    No one is busy at work on Roswell, except for Mr. Bragalia, who is seeking out new avenues that haven't received the attention they should have in the Roswell saga.

    As for the ETH or ET bias allegedly inherent to the UFO phenomenon, that's a popular canard and overlay that UFO cognoscenti know isn't the case.

    British folklorist Clarke's current brouhaha with some here in the states rests on his contention that UFOs are part of the fairy-tradition.

    Then we have Vallee's and Caravaca's theses about an outside influence with a nature that is unknown but palpable.

    Gilles Fernandez and I see a psychological component.

    Others see misperceptions of secret or prototypical aircraft.

    And there are other considerations, as you well know.

    The ET bias is ubiquitous, as you note but not the acceptable explanation for many of us who are stuck fooling around with UFO enigma.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • What they are "doing":


    Their 'expertise'


    (What else did you expect?)

    By Blogger Chuck Finley, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • Thanks CF:

    Anthropology is a credible discipline surely. (I don't know what that might have to do with Roswell's 1947 humans but it's something.)

    Schmitt has a liberal arts background and worked with Hynek; is that a plus?

    I hope the boys, while at the Roswell Festival, sought out some 1947 materials - diaries, photos - someone must have taken a picture or two during the Roswell time-frame (of all the alleged military action in town or the debris that everyone was playing with).

    The Randle Dream Team is fooling around; making a half-hearted effort to support their underlying belief that Roswell was an ET event.

    If the ET explanation doesn't pan out -- and it may not -- those guys will be eating crow as Roswellians say.

    But one can hope they come up with something, anything, meaty enough to warrant their effort and our antithetical view (which is just as foolish).


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • RRRGroup,

    The purported photographic evidence seems to either speak to Roswell as an ET event, or support something like the explanation for Roswell Annie Jacobsen posited in her book.

    Whilst an ET bias may not be justified, I think there is firm evidence for a bias towards non prosaic explanations

    By Blogger Ross, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • Ross:

    From what I've been told, the new find also doesn't go to a prosaic explanation.

    But it will be controversial.

    Yet that's for the Roswell incident, not UFOs generally.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • RRRGroup,

    Controversial because of the conclusion, or controversial because it debunks evidence provided by most of the most significant witnesses?

    By Blogger Ross, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • Controversial, Ross, because it is open to conjecture I think.

    Not by some but by others who are disinclined to believe that what they are seeing is extraterrestrial or even odd in a spectacular way.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • RRRGRoup,

    That's inevitable. I am absolutely certain that both cda and Tim will remain as convinced that this evidence is without merit when they finally do see it as they were before they cast eyes upon it. I am equally sure it will be rejected by many ETHers because it will not accord with the Roswell narrative on which they have settled.

    By Blogger Ross, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • And Ross, I have to insist that the Roswell event of 1947 is a unique event, not duplicated elsewhere and maybe having nothing to do with UFOs as an ongoing phenomenon B.C. and A.D.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • RRRGroup,

    Which is something I've seen Bragalia discuss: that Roswell was an entirely unique event.

    By Blogger Ross, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • Ross,

    I have no idea what Randle & Co will present. Nor do you know how I will react. Yet I, like others, look forward to this "find."

    So, relax and take a breather.

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • Hi Rich,

    The idea that Roswell was a spacecraft crash remains, at its core, supremely silly.

    All of the contemporaneous evidence indicates the same thing: a rancher found some foil paper, balsa sticks, and others odds and ends and (in the frenzy of excitement following Arnold's seminal sighting) thought that maybe, just maybe the stuff might have had something to do with the discs he was hearing about.

    The military came out and due to the lack of identifying marks and the weird flowery tape (and perhaps some of the other components) thought that the debris could also have been one of the discs. Indeed the papers were full of officials finding the same sort of junk elsewhere (foil paper, etc) and calling it a "disc" (including a story from Texas THE VERY SAME MORNING OF THE ROSWELL PRESS RELEASE!).

    Convening a panel of actual experts to consider such a lightweight and clearcut story seems uncalled for.

    And convening a group of died in-the wool zealots, liars and proven incompetents (Mr. Rutowski and Mr. Randle specifically excluded) will probably get you what you might expect.

    Kevin has already said that there is NO DOUBT about his basic saucer explanation for Roswell. Having a hypothesis that is unfalsifiable is the classic indication of pseudoscience.

    And pseudoscience has always been the realm of Roswell (and most of UFO research as well).


    By Blogger Lance, at Saturday, July 06, 2013  

  • Sigh. It's just ridiculous to have a 'new' investigation of Roswell in the first place, there is nothing to investigate except the mindset and attitudes of the investigators and the true believers.

    You don't need to be a so-called expert with any degrees in anything to *get* Roswell. I mean you need decent and relevant psychological and sociological knowledge. But that means thinking for yourself here, doing your own research and not relying on paper degrees (that's just argument from authority). I have personally known psychologists and psychiatrists whose insight into human psychology is pretty much zero, and were clearly suffering from their own severe neuroses that they didn't even recognize as such. Heck this is almost a truism. An old joke. Or it should be.

    So psychology/sociology is relevant, so is folklore. Arguably even religion and yes anthropology. That's because the Roswell myth caters to religious needs in the age of Future Shock, in which organized religion has lost a lot of respect and support (and understandably so). Something needs to fill the gap. Roswell is just one of the gap fillers.

    So no, if you take ufology seriously (is this possible? Well you have to have a sense of humor here first and foremost), you don't even bother with a Roswell investigative team.

    Let's get a dream team together to investigate Mt Ararat, to find Noah's ark. Why not? It's the same thing. The differences are superficial, it's actually a religious thing in both cases. Just different markets. In both cases you are wasting your time, since in both cases we are dealing with mythology. And note I don't mean mythology in a disparaging or negative sense at all. I just mean it can't be taken literally or at face value, in both cases.

    It's the same with the hunt for Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster. They are hunting phantoms (I don't doubt the sincerity of many of the witnesses but it's a whole other thing, as is 'but what do we mean by a phantom?').

    By Blogger Lawrence, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • Lawrence:

    I couldn't agree more....perhaps.

    A Roswell Dream Team -- new or old -- is superfluous.

    (I was making an obtuse point.)

    But it would be nice, even good, to eliminate some of the ongoing mysteries that so many spend wasteful time on -- me included.

    Noah's Ark, The Ark of the Covenant, Loch Ness, Bigfoot, and Roswell, among others would be better if they were resolved.

    But they are harmless pursuits, just not practical pursuits; that is, they add little to the human drama, but they do offer spice, arguably.

    Is the pursuit of Roswell (or the others listed) any more nonsensical than a game of softball in one's neighborhood? Or a night of poker? What about a day of water-skiing?
    Or a night of watching television?

    Human endeavors, of all kinds can be silly or non-productive, but do serve a purpose: they keep us humans from going crazy in a world that doesn't make a lot of sense, and the meaning of life is hidden from us.

    Harmless pursuits maybe, but not evil pursuits or productive pursuits, but something to do, if one has the time and inclination.

    (I have to agree with you about psychologists. My professors and the psychiatrists I trained under were loopier than the persons they were teaching or treating; one and all. Tics and odd mannerisms, and screwy ideas about sexual behavior.)


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • Roswell will never be 'solved'.
    This is because there will always be many who refuse to accept the 'solution', such as the 1994 USAF solution.

    The Turin Shroud mystery has been solved, by 3 independent teams of scientists. Yet still there are those who stubbornly believe the shroud once contained the body of Jesus Christ - and nothing will persuade them otheriwse. Also, there will always be those who refuse to accept the scientists' answer (that it was a medieval forgery) by pointing out that the scientists might or could have ignored this or that or even DID ignore something. And so on. A kind of mini-conspiracy theory, in effect.

    It is exactly the same with Roswell. There will never be, in some people's eyes, a solution. And in other people's eyes the only solution is an ET visit to earth, and an official cover-up as well.

    Meanwhile, mainstream science quietly goes about its business as normal.

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • Christopher:

    I don't think you'll be surprised to learn that I think the Shroud of Turin was, indeed, the burial cloth of Christ, and that's His impression on it, from the process of His Resurrection.

    But then I think God is dead, actually, not just metaphorically as Nietzsche indicated.

    So Roswell is an open question for me, not a Mogul cluster but something rather exotic or odd that got away from media at the time.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • You can be an expert on verifiable information based on repeatability and consensus reality. You cannot be an expert on what you don't know and expertise is not simply interpretation and opinion with a cloyingly egotistical misrepresentation accompanied by vagueness and pseudo-terminology, making hoo-doo out of a totemic belief system based on a hybridised materialistic mysticism. An expert in metallurgy has no place in this. There are no experts, no Dream Team, no facts, no mystery in that this is a sort of Zenith of pulp stupidity. It has become so turgid and self stereotyped to become the antithesis of entertainment or a hobby. It's a case history of the blind leading the blind compounded by the viral distribution of a belief system creating pseudo evidence, whose glue is ignorance.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • Bruce:

    You know my tendency to agree with you about many things, but in this instance I have to step away, for these reasons:

    You state that "an expert in metallurgy has no place" [in the Roswell controversy]. However, Tony Bragalia has discovered, to my astute satisfaction, that Battelle has been studying malleable metal ostensibly derived from Roswell in 1947....the nitinol memory metal.

    That requires a definitive look-see in my book, and Mr. Bragalia has been and continues to be pursuing the matter, thoroughly.

    Yes, Roswell is a clutch of created mythos and errant information, but at its core is a mystery -- maybe an insignificant mystery, but a mystery nonetheless.

    It should be resolved, for those still enamored of the damn incident.

    Again, I press the point that Roswell is perhaps meaningless in the great scheme of things, but it is harmless as a "hobby" for those who like such trivial pursuits.

    It keep mischief makers off the streets and out of important internet venues.

    While Roswell should be ignored by thinkers of life's purposes, it is a topic for those less inclined to be intellectually stimulated.

    There are so many human enterprises and activities that are stupid that one more is hardly something to get worked up about.

    Roswell is (or should be) fun even though some people I respect think it portends something perhaps transcendental in nature.

    The Randle Dream Team has been privy to something that seems to indicate we are not alone in the Universe I've been told.

    Whether that is so, is yet to be determined or proven, but it is believed [sic] to be the case according to persons I know with credibility and intelligent cachet.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • "The Randle Dream Team has been privy to something that seems to indicate we are not alone in the Universe I've been told."

    60 years ago Adamski was privy to something, soon to be shared among us all, that we were not alone, even in the solar system. Remember those footprint casts, the Venusian writing, and the 'scout ship' photos?

    Even if only one in a thousand of the reported abductions were literally true, this would also indicate that we were not alone in the universe.

    Actually probability alone would seem to indicate this, without the need for any of this new evidence, and without the need for SETI at all.

    What is so surprising about us not being alone in our universe anyway? There are something like 10 or 20 sextillion stars, aren't there? Plenty of these have planets, inhabitable ones too.

    And you know as well as I do that the promised 'new evidence' of the Dream Team will go down the plug hole, like all the other Roswell ET evidence.

    Junk science is all Roswell was, is, and ever shall be.

    Over to you, Bruce.

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • CDA
    I suspect that this so called team of experts have no hint of a even vaguely verifiable smoking gun and are loathe to say so and so rumor and gossip bolster a wistful and woebegone and extremely stubborn belief that their effort has potential and critical import, at some indeterminate juncture and so keeping quiet keeps their ball rolling toward their self created mystique toward finding a payday.

    However only incidentally a story about extraterrestrials.

    It is a story about our paranoiac technological age, and conspiracy theory,and the search for redemption when you bet on the wrong horse.

    It could be about the Lost Dutchman Mine, the survival of John Wilkes Booth, or the Kennedy Assassination.

    Take your pick.

    We don't require the Dream Team, they require us.

    We know there is a chance that sentient life may exist elsewhere, and we don't need the goofy amateurs of a Dream Team taking us off in some goofy cultural cartoon to know the anomalous exists and it is deeply hidden and has import.

    They may as well scour teapots or look in airport parking lots as they are so over-matched by the phenomenon they appear like the neighborhood kids trying to make some excitement for themselves on a boring and interminably long summer day. Nothing wrong with that, but no one takes them seriously, except they do take this seriously, and they only accomplish leading themselves in knots, and more to the point, others as well..just the title of Dream Team is a stupid joke.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • BTW..The point was and is this goofy Dream Team is given way too much consideration, and excuse after excuse for their own demented belief system. I say silence is called for when the kids are around..they might ( and have) get the facts tangled up in their immature view of the realities we inhabit. I would not silence them but I would not give them credence. 99% of the world believes in some goofy half baked concept, maybe we should give L Ron Hubbard some dues.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • "It is a story about our paranoiac technological age, and conspiracy theory, and the search for redemption when you bet on the wrong horse."

    Don Quixote comes to mind.

    By Blogger Jack Brewer, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • We exist in an absurdity: a boundless expanse of dimension and matter, perhaps one amongst an infinity, all emerging from utter nothingness.

    There are more things in heaven and earth, Bruce, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. A philosophy predicated upon the repudiation of anything non prosaic.

    By Blogger Ross, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • Shakespeare, Ross, says it all.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • Ross, a little passive aggressive? You seem to be more anxious about
    Randle's "blockbuster" than most of us.

    Again, relax and take a breather...

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • Tim:

    I see Ross as moderately enthused about things odd and out of the ordinary.

    He's nowhere as worked up about Randle's Team's effort(s) as Bruce and CDA are.

    Ross is open-minded and discerning; one of my favorite visitors here, like you.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • Tim,

    If there is new evidence I am interested in seeing it. My expectations of anything substantive are suitably muted by Randle's track record, but the undercurrent to all this suggests something may well be afoot.

    By Blogger Ross, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • Interestingly Ross...

    A major metropolitan newspaper that saw the "discovered evidence" didn't go forward with anything about it.

    And a major cable news network decided to pass on the item, because it was proffered by names that have been identified with the pro-ET stance of Roswell; the network thinking the item was a ploy to further the Roswell ET theory and new books about it.

    The item became iffy because of its sponsored associations.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • Ross
    As far as living in an absurdity, I would avoid using the word "we".
    Anything is possible, probability is another matter. I am not worked up swatting pesky goofballs but I am giving an assessment of what has become a quasi cult that could care less about my opinion. They cannot wake up and smell the coffee burning,.if they were hit by an alien wielding a two by four.
    They are bedazzled by a cultural narcotic, buried in a pile of cast off leftovers that they themselves consumed to a carcass, or should I say a pile of them. Too many cries of wolf, too many half baked statements made with exclamatory punctuation.Surrealism and turgidity is a difficult feat of communication when dealing with the prosaic nuts and bolts theory out of a comic book, lacking any evidence whatsoever. It is a anomalous phenomenon, however their efforts to domesticate it remain prosaic and conspiratorially paranoiac.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • Bruce,

    Don't hesitate to tell us how you really feel.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • Its a reaction to the equivalent of indigestion after having been exposed to cultural throw up that's been tarted up. Wheres PG? Maybe they got to her and she was turned into a zombie..Here they come with torches..Roswell..Roswell they murmur.Wheres my garlic necklace? Time to get the BBQ going..although I already prepared the roast.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, July 07, 2013  

  • Perhaps we (some of us) should cease being so hostile to this promised 'new evidence', and pose the perfectly fair question:

    What would it take to convince you (i.e. any of us) that we were indeed not alone in the universe and that those who share the universe with us have visited our planet in the recent past, i.e. within, say, the last hundred years?

    I know what my criterion is and am very certain that the DT will not now, or ever in the future, produce such evidence.

    But we all have differing standards of what constitutes evidence, don't we?

    Meanwhile, as I said before, mainstream science will proceed as normal, as if nothing happened.

    By Blogger cda, at Monday, July 08, 2013  

  • CDA:

    Even if we have had an extraterrestrial visitation, long ago or within modern times (1947?), how has that impacted us as humans?

    My argument with "colleagues" who are thrilled by the possibility that Roswell was an ET event is, how did such an event affect me or humans generally?

    Did the visitation cure cancer or warfare or make life better (or worse) for the human species?

    Where's the results of such a momentous event?

    (I am more excited by a neighbor keeping a raccoon out of our garden patch, than possible alien visitors bringing nothing visible or tangible to the human table. Corso's litany of "ET goodies" didn't excite me either. The practical result of an ET stop-over or crash brought nil, as far as I can tell.)


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, July 08, 2013  

  • You just don't get it.

    Stan Friedman tells us that the transistor, and maybe the whole of solid state electronics, probably came from 'back-engineering' the Roswell craft. Likewise Tony Bragalia seems convinced that nitinol was derived from the same debris (via the Battelle Institute).

    So there you have it, two proven (well almost!) cases of real benefits to mankind from an ET visit.

    (As an aside, Robert Todd once told me that Friedman was a backwards engineer)

    By Blogger cda, at Monday, July 08, 2013  

  • I guess that my dentist doesn't use nitinol, CDA, and the electronics, found by back-engineering haven't improved my life in any significant way.

    So, you're right....I don't get it, at all.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, July 08, 2013  

  • Here I am. Sometimes, I need a vacation from UFOs and especially Roswell because it all starts to sound like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't even hear or see individual words anymore; it all becomes just noise. Besides, I do have a non-ufological life that I enjoy.

    I see the wheels are still spinning in the Roswell mud since I've taken a break. Sigh. I'll check back in again later.

    By Blogger purrlgurrl, at Monday, July 08, 2013  

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