UFO Conjecture(s)

Monday, August 26, 2013

Paul Kimball's Podcast with Kevin Randle


Here is the podcast that some of you have longed to hear: Paul Kimball interviewing Kevin Randle about Roswell (and Aztec!), and how Kevin's Roswell Dream Team is progressing with its re-examination of the 1947 incident:

Click HERE to access the podcast.

(I'm really looking foward to hearing the back-and-forth between these two stellar guys.)

RR

40 Comments:

  • I cut most of the Aztec material out, and a full 10 minutes we spent chatting about the Citizens Hearing, because I don't like to wander too far over an hour, and the focus was on Roswell. The rest of the Aztec stuff (and the CH stuff) will probably wind up as a season-ending bonus episode, along with leftovers from other episodes.

    PK

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Monday, August 26, 2013  

  • Thanks, Paul...

    Yes, the Aztec discussion is short shrifted.

    And listeners can skip the first seven minutes.

    Also, I would suggest that Mr. Randle get a new phone.

    That aside, let me say that I like Kevin Randle, but here he sounds like an old man reminiscing about past glories, setting the stage for some answers with locale descriptions: We were by the Greyhound station at the corner of...

    Paul asks a question and Mr. Randle goes off on tangents, beclouding Paul's pointed query.

    Mr. Randle is obsessed with a guy named Frank Kaufman, and floods the podcast with his name and false Roswell stories.

    Also, Mr. Randle likes the Ramey memo, which he lauded as a valuable piece of Roswell evidence in his Paracast appearance and here too.

    Paul zeroes in on the "what have you got now" inquiry but Mr. Randle doesn't oblige, neglecting to even hint at new evidence that I've noted, somewhat, here, to the travail of the Roswell Dream Team.

    The podcast is invaluable as a rendition by Mr. Randle of the same old, same old Roswell stuff, telling us that the Dream Team is either treading water or playing cozy with one new item that could open the story to a new perspective.

    Paul Kimball knows, I think, what the new evidence supposedly is, but didn't broach the topic. Why not?

    The podcast is infuriating in one sense, and that is Mr. Randle muddied Mr. Kimball's questions and insights with circumlocutions and the rehash of old information.

    I'm being picky.

    But that's what I do and I think a few listeners will also be picky, finding Mr. Randle to be evasive but charming, even with that cloudy phone sound smudging the dialogue.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, August 26, 2013  

  • Reading the obituary for Jesse Marcel Jr along with your review of Paul's interview with whats his face, I got an over-riding sense that that particular ship has sailed off into the sunset. Anyone who is left at the dock simply has an increasing sense of being obsolete in the context of Roswell..sort of like being overly attached to a played out strip mine. I think the last of the last men standing must have ( I would think) have a similar feeling, unless they have their feet nailed to the floor. Unless a new wave arrives on shore, the last of the summer wine turned to vinegar. Without a material component, I think for most, all this will pass like a cloud, and for another generation...perhaps. Who wants to be a ace mechanic for a Model T?

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, August 26, 2013  

  • I'm actually not aware of what this new evidence is, but Kevin certainly doesn't seem to think very much of it because I asked him pointedly to make the best case for the ET crash scenario, and all that he could come up with was a few witnesses (all of whom have flaws) and the hope that the Ramey memo will reveal something new after all these years. I think even he realizes that it's the thinnest of gruel, and he agrees that it's a weaker case now than it was 20 years ago... which should tell you something.

    I think Kevin knows in his mind that there was nothing non-terrestrial that happened at Roswell (meaning that it's really not important), but in his heart he still wants to believe (although I think even there you can hear the weariness and resignation). The following quote is the most telling one in the whole interview for me, coming at the end of his initial recount of the evidence:

    ""We really can't get to the extraterrestrial. We can eliminate practically everything else that you care to mention, but that still doesn't get us to the extraterrestrial."

    Coming from one of the two or three people who built the ET spacecraft crash into the Roswell story, that should be seen as a stunning admission.

    Paul

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Monday, August 26, 2013  

  • I thought so too, Paul.

    You pressed him relentlessly and ongoing but he kept reverting to that Kaufman guy.

    And you're right, there was a note of resignation in his commentary.

    It was enlightening on several levels.

    You are journalistic throughout.

    I, as you, like Kevin but he is betting an a lame horse.

    And why he refuses to mention the alleged new evidence, which is old news at this point, baffles.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, August 26, 2013  

  • Kevin's continuing obsession with Kaufmann is interesting on a couple of levels.

    First, I think it shows a level of self-awareness and reflection rare amongst UFO researchers - the Roswell crowd in particular. Kevin knows that not only did he get Kaufmann wrong, he got him spectacularly wrong, and he clearly feels very bad about that, for which he is to be commended because it points to his integrity.

    Second, Kaufmann has tainted by close association another key witness - Walter Haut. That clearly troubles Kevin.

    But most important, Kaufmann shows that anyone can be badly fooled, which I think has driven home to Kevin the reality that you simply can't rely on witness testimony to make a firm conclusion if that's all that you have (as is the case, really, in Roswell). After all, if Kevin was wrong about Kaufmann (and Dennis, and maybe Haut), what's to say he isn't wrong about how he judged Marcel Sr. and Edwin Easley, the two people left that he is really relying upon? And with Marcel, Sr., you'll note that his defense of his exaggerated claims to Bob Pratt was lukewarm at best, falling into the "maybe Pratt got it wrong in the transcript" line, even while admitting that maybe he didn't... which means that Jesse Marcel was indeed someone who was prone to making stories seem better than they were.

    Paul

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Monday, August 26, 2013  

  • Yah, the Pratt "wrong or errant insertions in the transcript" seemed troublesome.

    For me, the Dream Team efforts are a mea culpa for the past wrongs committed innocently but were egregious examples of ineptness.

    Looking back upon the story, I found that your uncle Stan, in his Corona book, was on to something but he, like others, got smothered by the Mac Brazel nonsense, taking him and the other UFO guys away from the incident site to a place were some debris was found, but which had nothing to so with the real Roswell event....just an unfortunate, for history, coincidence but a boon for the Army who used Brazel's finds as a diversion.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, August 26, 2013  

  • I agree with Paul that Kevin Randle's fixation with Roswell being an ET event does appear to be fading. Which may be unfortunate for other Dream Team members.

    His idea that the Ramey memo contains, or may contain, the vital hard evidence (which Rudiak promotes so strongly) will also fade with time. This is a totally lost cause and I have no hesitation in saying so. Kevin will gradually come to accept it as such, I hope, though he is reluctant to admit it now.

    By Blogger cda, at Monday, August 26, 2013  

  • ...I trust, RRRGroup, that you will attempt, as old journalists, to interview the great Professor Bragalia as to his insightful interpretation of the statements from his very own 'The Dream Team (tm)' leader?

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Monday, August 26, 2013  

  • I'm not so sure, KP, that AJB reads anything of mine or listens to Paul's podcasts.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, August 26, 2013  

  • One think that CDA brought up as well as Rich is the sense that all of this is a matter of housekeeping to clean up a mess, but if so, why not be more elegant about it?

    A simple paragraph would suffice rather than this drawn out trip through a fading memory lane to diffuse any criticism that a lot of folks made a big mess without cleaning up after themselves.

    There's no making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

    I think quite a few folks think a graceful bowing out would be appreciated, rather than a record breaking long good bye for the sake of face saving.

    We get it. It's a done deal. Move on.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, August 26, 2013  

  • It is disappointing that Paul did not avail himself of the opportunity to simply ask Randle directly about the rumours of new material which has come to light.

    Randle seemed strangely forthcoming in admitting a litany of investigative errors, and in detailing all the dead-ends Team Dream have run into.

    It was an interesting and instructive contrast from his blog; there old evidence is vehemently defended, in this interview Randle seemed to defenestrate much of the Roswell canon.

    Whatever the true status of Team Dream's investigation, one thing is very clear: Randle's public utterances on Roswell now seem only to serve as a misdirection.

    By Blogger Ross, at Monday, August 26, 2013  

  • I don't ask people about rumours. I asked Kevin to provide the best case, as it stands now, for the ET crash story about Roswell. That covered all contingencies. That he didn't bring up any supposed "new" evidence when he was publicly making his case tells me either that there is none, or that he doesn't believe it to be of interest, import or value.

    PK

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Monday, August 26, 2013  

  • This podcast is excellent. Kevin really outlines just how shaky his case is. It is sad that Kevin ( who was completely reasonable and honest in this discussion) has fallen in with nuts who have no idea what evidence is or how investigations should be conducted.

    Lance

    By Blogger Lance, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • ...listening to Randle's statements in this podcast, some guy named Tom Carey is the real brains of his operation... SO when will HE comment here???

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Paul,


    The bulk of your discussion pertained to the numerous 'rumours' surrounding Roswell. It would have been interesting to see how Randle dealt with a blunt question on the topic of this new evidence

    (In truth this new material is much more than a rumour as several media outlets have been offered it)

    By Blogger Ross, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Well now, which is it, Ross... a rumour, or not a rumour?

    I asked the questions that mattered, based on the information available. If you think you can do better, go to it.

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Paul,


    It's a rumour that Randle is in some way involved with this evidence, but it is a fact that whatever the merit of this material it does exist.

    I don't think I or anyone else could have done better, because what was very clear is that Randle isn't going to make substantive public comment on what Team Dream have been working on. Nevertheless, it would have been interesting to see how he dealt with a direction question on the matter.

    By Blogger Ross, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Paul brought up a devastating argument that I am embarrassed to say that I never considered:

    How can it POSSIBLY be that the base intelligence officer who found the debris (Marcel) was completely unaware of the HUGE operation to recover the main spaceship and alien bodies? Virtually everyone elese on the base (cooks, etc) knew about this part of the Roswell fantasy but Marcel never mentioned it in any way.

    A very telling part of Paul's interview is also when Kevin laments that whenever a concrete piece of evidence (like a diary or other document) is found, it is ALWAYS disconfirming. He doesn't understand this but never considers that the reason could be because his underlying beliefs are faulty.

    Kevin must get comfort from the gossamer constructions of the conspiracy nuts and morons assembled on the dream team (excluding Chris). They no doubt prop up his flagging enthusiasm for this now tawdry mythology.


    Lance

    By Blogger Lance, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • I think, Lance (and Ross) that i'm going to lay out The Roswell "Rumor" and let the chips fall where they may.

    Enough is enough.

    Let's move this Roswell tale along -- to a real clarification or the dung heap.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Ross,

    You'll have to forgive my crankiness - someone has informed me that they created a Wikipedia article about me which is already targeted for deletion because I'm not important enough. Oh, the humanity!

    As for the rumoured new evidence, until it is publicly discussed then I have no interest in discussing it. The stuff that Kevin and I talked about has all been out there for years - it is the Roswell case that exists, for good or ill. Other people's mileage about questioning someone about rumours might vary, and that's fine. I just don't roll that way.

    Best,
    Paul

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • I will also add that the one question that I should have asked, but didn't because I consider Kevin a friend, was as follows:

    "Why in the name of [insert deity of your choice] did you ever agree to work with Donald Schmitt again???????"

    PK

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Yah, Paul...

    You almost went there a few times, so we listeners got your vibe.

    It's baffling why Kevin is in bed with Schmitt....maybe a nice guy but with iffy baggage that compromises what the Dream Team may come up with.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Schmitt is anything but a "nice guy" - he flat out lied about his background to his research partner, and that calls into question just how truthful he can be when it comes to anything else - like, for example, the actual "research" he conducts. He should never have been let back into the Hall of Serious UFO Researchers ever again, and...

    Oh, wait. There is no such thing as the Hall of Serious UFO Researchers.

    Well, that explains it.

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Hahahahaha....

    I have a gazillion books on Roswell but never really got into the topic.

    But I always wondered about the Schmitt resurgence, as I did know about his "research" sleight of hand.

    Kevin has loaded his Dream Team with a lot of iffy or controversial items, people and materials both.

    Why?

    It's like a kind of professional suicide.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Another point is why Schmitt and Carey chose to publish yet another Roswell book (just recently) while the Dream Team is still active. These two are clearly besotted with Roswell but presumably the other DT members were happy to let them publish their own findings separately.

    Rather like an official committee investigating a matter of interest then two members of that committee doing their own thing and publishing a separate report on it while the rest are still at work on the investigation.

    If perchance the DT do come up with something new, and possibly non-ET, they are then going to be in the position that two of their team have already jumped the gun and gone against the others.

    Work that one out. The only term that comes to mind is 'complete shambles'. But that is the nature of Roswell anyway.

    By Blogger cda, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Paul addresses some of this...

    But let's suppose that the DT "proves" (yah, I know, that's just nutty) but let me go one...let's assume the DT proves that an alien space ship crashed near Roswell and bodies were recovered.

    How has that event, almost 70 years ago now, affected any of us?

    What has been the impact, aside from that of alleged flying disc?

    Did the incident lower my taxes? Cure cancer? Feed the hungry? Stop rap music from taking over the music world?

    So there are alien peoples visiting the Earth.

    Who benefits? Who suffers? Who cares?

    It's pathetic, in a sociological way.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Your questions are the very ones a guy like Stanton Friedman can answer, but I am not at all certain he will.

    By Blogger cda, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • He might, CDA...

    He did write, a few years ago, for our free book of UFO clippings we offered to UpDaters.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Ah, sorry Rich for the minutia but I wanted to also mention that in the same interview with Kevin (which I think is possibly the best on the topic from the skeptical viewpoint) that Kevin essentially repudiated the silly work of Carey and Schmitt in regards to the ever-changing story of Walter Haut.

    One has to imagine what he actually thinks of one other lightweight and buffoonish (and completely discredited) member of the Dream Team with whom you are well acquainted, Rich. Kevin isn't a fool and I can't imagine that he suffers them gladly.

    Additionally, Kevin seems to place all his hopes on the Ramey memo (already fumbled and distorted by master conspiracy buff, Rudiak) and mentions no other known avenues of viable exploration.


    Lance

    By Blogger Lance, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Lance,

    Your "minutia" is never trivial or meaningless.

    As for Kevin's obsession lately with the Ramey memo, I'm baffled.

    It's a curiosity that offers hope to those inclined to see what new technologies can do with unscrambling formerly unreadable or undecipherable materials.

    So, if we or, rather, the DT finds out that the Ramey memo includes a line that reads "victims of the crash," what do we really have?

    Extraterrestrial victims? Crew of an aircraft accident? Redfern's disabled Japanese mutants? Farmers on the ground when an errant missile came down upon them?

    It still doesn't resolve anything.

    Roswell is a tar baby.

    And I am chastened for spending as much time on it as I have.....

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • I don't think for a moment there was a extraterrestrial craft but the subject defies gravity, or is it gravitas? As far as whats his face and the DT's they have made every effort in the past to destroy the subject of UAP as well as more serious possibilities, and they succeeded. Now that they killed off the competition of alternative takes on whatever this is, and backed themselves into a self referential yet contradictory babble fest, I see his as the death throes of a virus, a heat sink and self strangulation.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Yes, I record all interviews with Skype, as do most podcasts and radio shows now. I suspect any problems on Kevin's end were with the quality of his microphone, but I didn't actually think it was all that bad - I've heard a lot worse.

    PK

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • I deleted some Ross/Kevin comments via my cell phone....I hope I got 'em all....the comments were a bit on the too-personal kind.

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, August 27, 2013  

  • Kimball is the interviewer Gene Steinberg and Chris O'Brien can only hope to be.

    Anyone who listened to this who still thinks there's something to Roswell lives in a fantasy world.

    Randall's still hanging onto it because it's been a big part of his life so long there'd be a huge hole if he did let it go. I also don't think he can admit that pursuing it was a waste of a great deal of time, energy, and money.

    Here's hoping Randall at least got pleasure from writing his books and doing the Roswell research. I suspect he did from the latter because it clearly was a great social outlet for him.

    By Blogger purrlgurrl, at Wednesday, August 28, 2013  

  • Hello,

    In my humble book, I recalled People that a person wrote,dated Sept 10, 1995, a letter about Don Schmitt titled To Whom It May Concern.

    We can read here (only extracts): The search for the nurses proves that he (Schmitt) will lie about anything. He will lie to anyone… He has revealed himself as a pathological liar… I will have nothing more to do with him.
    [...]
    That said, let me now point out that I do not now believe anything that Schmitt says and neither should you…

    This nice (yes, I like him) guy was Kevin Randle himself.

    I ignore too what have sudently changed to incoporate Schmitt in the Kevin's so-called Dream Team.
    Maybe Don Schmitt have now true diploms and achieved the ones he lied to have by the past to abuse people by authority argument, who knows?

    Or, Schmitt confessed facing a representent of the Ufology Church, and he received Forgiveness...
    So, maybe we will read a Parable of the Prodigal Son-like in a future Ufological release? Dunno.

    I noticed too how Doctor Rudiak jumped to the very sad news of the passing away of Jesse Marcel Jr. to present another his stupid conspiracy theory.

    Kudos to Kevin to have reacted.

    Regards,

    Gilles

    Regards,

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Wednesday, August 28, 2013  

  • Rich, you wrote: What has been the impact, aside from that of alleged flying disc?

    He, friend, dont you remember "researcher" Anthony Bragalia findings for the Humankind, presented in the article titled ROSWELL “MEMORY METAL” FOUND ON OFFICIAL FILM OF B-2 STEALTH?

    Gilles.

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Wednesday, August 28, 2013  

  • > Randle's still hanging onto it because it's been a big part of his life...I also don't think he can admit that pursuing it was a waste of a great deal of time, energy, and money.

    If you are correct, PG, it logically follows that Kevin can justify his long commitment to Roswell in one way only. Randle must continue stripping away the falsehoods and exposing the lies of witnesses until there is nothing left of the Roswell case but the original news reports and those photos in the office. At that point, Kevin will have to announce that Roswell is a myth based on a misunderstanding.

    Kevin can salvage his commitment to the Roswell case only if he is hailed as the man who kills off the Roswell case.

    By Blogger Terry the Censor, at Saturday, September 07, 2013  

  • Rich, I apologize for making a comment so long after the initial post, but my people insist on getting married, having babies, having (non-fatal) heart attacks -- and of course there are Little League playoffs now.

    Life has been getting my attention lately. (And I didn't even know I had a life anymore!)

    By Blogger Terry the Censor, at Saturday, September 07, 2013  

  • Terry,

    It's just great to have you here....better late than never.

    And I admire your grasp of reality; life and family come first if one is truly sane.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, September 07, 2013  

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