UFO Conjecture(s)

Wednesday, September 25, 2013

The Follow-Up

follow-up.jpg
Well, the brouhaha about the Roswell rumor was expected by me (and others).

What wasn’t expected was the dissembling and silliness it provoked.

Let me try to clarify the issue(s)….

Anthony Bragalia and I have been friends for a while now. Whether or not that friendship is intact or continues is yet to be determined.

I have always supported Tony and have provided forums for his views, even when I’ve disagreed with his hypotheses: Wanaque and Socorro among others,

But I’ve placed his material online, verbatim, and with no editorial snippets.

I also put other contributors online at our venues: Jose Caravaca, Nick Redfern, Gilles Fernandez, and links to Paul Kimball’s Other of Truth output sometimes.

That I would place a submission from “Anonymous” about the so-called Roswell photo rumor goes without question.

Mr. Bragalia implies that I am “anonymous” and Ufology’s creep – Steve Sawyer – also suggests that. (You can spit on Sawyer’s comments. He’s on the fringe of the UFO community and eschewed by the saner members of that community.)

I am not anonymous. And if one reads the comments and knows the history of the “rumor,” they might be able to see who “anonymous” is.

(I always sign what I write, as RR, and have never used anonymous or noms de plume as a sign off.)

The other thing that stings is that Tony said I made up the material from “whole cloth” implying that I lied or created the story.

He knows that is not so and he knows the sources of the “rumor” – as Nick Redfern and especially Frank Warren pointed out.

Tony has asked me to delete the post. I will not.

I suggest that he or other members of Kevin Randle’s Dream Team tell me (and us) where the post is egregiously wrong.

That the information is out there – as a rumor or not – should bring forth a sally of correctives, not an implication that it is a tale told by an idiot.

If Mr. Randle’s Dream Team members have interacted with someone who says they have slides from Roswell in 1947, they should tell the UFO community that, now not later.

The gist of what those slides show can be displayed or talked about in the Dream Team’s time frame, but that they have seen or know about such slides can and should be detailed now, that I and anonymous, along with others, have spilled the beans as it were.

I am not beholden to Roswell, the Dream Team or even my friendship with Tony Bragalia.

I am beholden to information and the truth about that information as best as it can be discerned.

I haven’t made a mark as a media consultant by promoting falsehoods.

So, let’s see that develops further, if anything.

If the matter fades away, so be it. If it brings forth information that some in the UFO community finds interesting, so be that also.

But you have my statement(s) here, and I’ll let them stand, as part of the record, despite the pleas to have me delete them for the sake of some eventual Roswell denouement.

RR 

32 Comments:

  • Despite the unintentionally ironic and hilarious copyright infringement notice contained on a posting by Anonymous (or perhaps you were being intentionally ironic and hilarious), good for you for making the previous post, which is in many (although not all) respects in accord with information I was made privy to in confidence by a member of the DT, upon whom I strenuously prevailed to make that information public... at the same time as I prevailed upon him to walk away from the circus that is the DT, and this new "evidence" which is clearly bogus.

    PK

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Thanks ,Paul...

    The Copyright notice is de regueur for us but doesn't mean a thing when it comes to the internet.

    So it is inadvertently ironic or humorous.

    That Tony Bragalia implies the rumor was made from whole cloth by me may indicate he has gone over to the dark side.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • I'll confess to having considered conspiring in an effort to push this talk back beneath its veil; but it is better out in the open, and the DT loses nothing by what has been rumoured being in the public domain.

    Rather than decrying the injustice of it all, those concerned should be thankful that so many people refrained from revealing information for so long.

    By Blogger Ross, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Paul,

    What leads you to conclude it is bogus?

    By Blogger Ross, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • No more secrets, nor egos, nor search of notoriety ... Gentlemen investigate a little ... and learn from Rich, an honest guy and disinterested... a little respect

    saludos...

    By Blogger jacarav@ca, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Dude, it’s Roswell. Better still, it’s Ufology, an entertaining hobby and social network, but nothing more substantial than that. There are no Ufology “professional” careers at stake here because there are no Ufology professionals.

    If anyone believes he is one then I’d advise him (or her) to engage in a course of psychotherapy.

    The fate of the world and the universe aren’t hanging on cobweb-covered second- and third-hand hand Roswell gossip and fictions.

    This is really (I mean REALLY) not worth busting up a long-time friendship over.

    By Blogger purrlgurrl, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Thanks, Jose.

    And PG, Tony takes this stuff seriously, whereas I do not, as you know.

    For me, the rumor and UFOs generally are the stuff of dreams, as Sam Spade (Humphrey Bogart) said in The Maltese Falcon.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • I don't think you are "Anonymous" and climbing out on a limb on your part makes me consider the strength of the limb.
    Deflections in terms of denial on Tony's part as well as the denial of the material appear to be, on the surface, indicative of an ownership of this material, as well as that it was allegedly solicited to CNN.
    This episode illustrates what I termed the last redoubt of Ufology where it is a platform for all stripes of self aggrandizement.
    I applaud you treading on everyone's toes as a necessary reminder that we all need to be pulled back from the realm of fantasies and behavior resembling that of a twelve year old.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Ross,

    Common sense for starters... then everything else, starting with a complete lack of provenance and going from there. I gave my word as a friend that I would keep the details to which I was made privy in confidence until they were publicly released, and for good or ill I'm a man of my word. But far from being proof of Roswell, the slides will be the final nail in the story's coffin for all but the most obsessed.

    Paul

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • I must point out to PG (who claims there are no professional ufologists) that Stanton Friedman considers himself a professional ufologist.

    But his books and articles always describe him as a nuclear physicist. Strange, isn't it?

    To get back to the topic, it is just another example of anonymous sources telling other anonymous people about supposed photos, bodies and so on. Recall the infamous alien autopsy movie of 1995. It had similar origins. I was even at its 'premiere' in London, when the press were there. But at least the film was shown to the public, and was not a rumor.

    This present tale is only rumor. And that is likely all it ever will be.

    By Blogger cda, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • I think the entire episode of Roswell is grist for the mill in psychological terms, as Gilles would say and at the heart of this is an exception to the conservation of energy.
    The Roswell myth generated more heat than the fuel used to provide it with momentum.
    If one reads Jacques Valle's new interview at The Daily Grail regarding the state of Ufology, one can easily determine the "roots" of Roswell.
    Personally I think we need to shake off the dust, wipe clean the mud from our hands and move on.
    Time is counted.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • ...having revised my prepublished comment here multiple times, and after reflecting upon this most current evidence for the theory of the 'Oculist's Razor', I have only this:

    ...it is obvious, RRRGroup, that you are unfamiliar with the REAL 'research' techniques of one Tom "yum, mashed potatoes" Carey....

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Kurt

    From the "Roswell UFO Festival" website. Evidence of a complete lack of self aggrandizement..

    "Roswell, the SyFy Channel’s SyFy Investigates and the History Channel’s, The UFO Hunters. He was also a featured interviewee on the 20th Century Fox, Golden Anniversary, re-release DVD of the 1951 sci-fi classic, The Day the Earth Stood Still. His 2007 book, co-authored with Don Schmitt, Witness to Roswell: Unmasking the 60-Year Cover-Up, was the #1 best-selling UFO book in the world in 2007-2008. Its sequel, Witness to Roswell: Unmasking the Government’s Biggest Cover-Up, published 2009, still remains a best seller. Both books are considered to be the best books ever written about the “Roswell Incident.” A motion picture, based upon these books, titled Majic Men, is nearing production, as is a TV mini-series based on the book. A new book about the secret history of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base titled Inside the Real Area 51, also co-authored with Don Schmitt, is scheduled for release in August of 2013. Another book about Roswell, with Don Schmitt and fellow-researcher Kevin Randle, is in preparation for a 2014 release. "

    In my book, case closed. This is not science, it is a cottage industry.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Bruce....

    You write:

    "A new book about the secret history of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base titled Inside the Real Area 51, also co-authored with Don Schmitt."

    That book is already out, and I got the dickens from Mr. Bragalia when I panned it (online here) -- he's named in it.

    The book publisher seems to have stopped sending books for review because of my acid criticism.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • It was a direct quotation from the other cottage industry website, The Roswell Festival" which of course is tied to another, The Roswell Museum.
    Capitalism is a wonderful thing.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • the #1 best-selling UFO book in the world in 2007-2008

    That's the equivalent in terms of worth to being the guy with a cat video on YouTube that has 10,000 views.

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • The book publisher seems to have stopped sending books for review because of my acid criticism.

    That tells one all they need to know about the publisher in question.

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • The best book written even about Roswell in quality is (my opinion):

    http://www.amazon.fr/Ufo-Crash-Roswell-Benson-Saler/dp/1588340635

    Why? Because (among other qualities) the two first co-authors adopt a point of view regarding the case "I" consider as "agnostist", considering the case, its narratives, etc. as a pure material for the disciplins they are "experts" (Ethnology, Human Sciences)

    Dear Paul Kimball have made interview of one the author, Benson Saler. I "recommand" again!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaaKOlK8IrM&feature=youtu.be

    To have another look of the Roswell case, this book is my best one regarding the case... It changes of "well, that's ufology" ;)

    Gilles


    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Do you think the Schmitt-Carey books follow the same lines as the Erich von Daniken ancient astronaut books.

    I forget how many books von Daniken produced but seem to remember that each one was presented to the public as a sequel to the previous one, whereas they were largely repeats, in that 90% of the contents of the second book had already appeared in the first, slightly revised, 90% of the third was in the second (or maybe the first), and so on.

    I have not read any of the Schmitt-Carey books, but perhaps they repeat the 'von Daniken effect'. Do they?

    By Blogger cda, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Back to the matter at hand, the fact that media outlets passed on the "evidence" is telling to me. Contrary to what the conspiracists would have you believe, journalists would sell their soul to have bona fide, indisputable evidence of something like a crashed ET spacecraft land on their desk (they might not be willing to do the legwork on something they consider a myth, but if someone could prove that the myth was in fact reality they will report it in a second, and then collect their Pulitzer). If you can't interest anyone serious in it, then it's almost certainly because it's not legit.

    PK

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • What is amazing me with the UFO myth, it is (among others) that its proponents/mythmakers are abble to find "connexions" between... the own productions of the myth itself!
    ie: the Roswell/Aztec connexion. And so on.

    I think "Circularity" seems to be a good component of its Modern Myth you are the witnesses (and sometimes the makers)... Well, that's ufology, after all.

    It was my 2 cents though of the day.

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Could everyone hold off commenting for the moment?

    I have a bag of pop corn in the microwave and a cold one in the fridge...

    I so do enjoy circular firing squads!

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Well Tim,

    The articulary/argumentative loop, circular threads concerning those pseudo new evidence(s) concerning the Roswell myth are imho very interresting and demonstrating. Why? Difficult in English...

    Ufology is plenty of Teasers/Teasing of evidences to come.

    A corpus or field promissing again and again new evidence(s) is only an aknowledgment by the makers themselves of this corpus and field, there is none scientific EVIDENCE to support them. (!!!)

    Or why promising again an again evidences to come ;)

    Then, and imho, each time ufology is promising evidence(s) to come, ufology debunks itself and demontrates "she" have not proven something (aka ET craft(s) visiting us, crashing and so many declinaisons of the UFO proponent's narratives).

    So, I like such "teasers" by the UFO-proponents we are the witnesses in Rich's Blog. Again!

    Regards,

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Tim

    Zombies are immune from firing squads

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Tony said I made up the material from “whole cloth” implying that I lied or created the story.

    Well, how about Mr. Bragalia answer one simple question then that goes to the heart of the matter - are there slides, or not, that the "Dream Team" have access to and which purport to be from the Roswell "crash" in 1947?

    If the answer is "yes" then the story as reported by Rich is, in it's most fundamental aspect, correct. If not, then Mr. Bragalia should say so, clearly and unambiguously, and in a public venue.

    This is one of those "come to Jesus" moments where people have to make a choice. Admittedly, it's penny ante stuff in the grand scheme of things, so it's more like a "come to Jebus" moment, but still... within the context of the world in which Mr. Bragalia and the Dream Teamers live, it's the moment of truth. Is the basic story true... or not? Is Anonymous a liar (and Rich one too by implication), or is his / her account accurate in its core claim?

    Tick, tock... that's the hourglass running out on whatever credibility Mr. Bragalia has left. Sadly, the same is true for my friend Kevin Randle...

    PK

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • Paul
    I couldn't agree with you more. This rubbish has been going on long enough, and what really irks is the appellation of Dream Team.
    McDonald, Hynek, Vallee was a science based Dream Team. This dream team is a revisionist convention of the same snake oil they have been selling for years..
    Tony..you are being paged.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • ...please you all, I remember hearing the religious motto: "hate the sin, not the sinner".

    ...SO... don't blame Professor Bragalia, OK???

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Wednesday, September 25, 2013  

  • The truth abhors a vacuum, Bruce... and yet all you hear from the Roswellites is a giant sucking sound.

    PK

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Thursday, September 26, 2013  

  • Paul Kimball you must be kidding. I owe you nothing. Come to Jesus? How about go to hell?

    If there were any physical evidence that was being evaluated by some members of the team they would need to establish origin, provenance and chain-of-custody. After authenticating such evidence by multiple experts, the answers to the many "who, what, when, where, why and how questions" would have to be found.

    This would take a very good deal of time to do. And those who are trying to "out" any knowledge that I may have, or compel me to say anything about any of this, do not have the interests of research in mind. They are only trying to create a stir...

    And Gilles, I am rather surprised at you. A supposedly learned man who finds himself speculating and involved in rumor-mongering.

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Thursday, September 26, 2013  

  • Tony
    You sidestepped Paul's question.

    Do these images exist?
    Yes or No?

    Were they offered to CNN?
    Yes or No?

    If yes, was the same methodology you cited utilized before they were offered to CNN?
    Yes or No?

    Simple questions and evading them does not speak well of anyone in terms of playing games, avoiding simple questions etc.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Thursday, September 26, 2013  

  • Tony,

    I well remember (because I PM Rich June the 9th how I was suprised by it) the post: http://ufocon.blogspot.com/2013/06/aztec-is-roswell-photo-evidence.html

    have been edited (a part suppressed), as one my comment too about this section supressed I commented.

    It concerned the photos and offers to TV shows.

    I understand you want not to reply to the questions offered by Paul (that's your right).

    As I dunno if all of it is a rumor or a teaser for future things the DT will provide or have in its possession (slides), as many other possibilities.

    Well, future will maybe give us the answer.

    Cya,

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Thursday, September 26, 2013  

  • And there we have Anthony Bragalia in a nut shell - ask him to provide backing for his claim that Rich's report was erroneous, and not only does he fail to provide the simple answer (and by not providing an answer, he actually provides the answer), but lashes out in anger, affronted that anyone would have the temerity to ask him to put up or shut up.

    Seek help of the psychiatric kind, Mr. Bragalia.

    Meanwhile, as I wrote at my blog, every time I deal with a so-called "ufologist" I think of Mac Tonnies, who was worth any ten of them when it comes to intellect, integrity and imagination.

    PK

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Thursday, September 26, 2013  

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