UFO Conjecture(s)

Sunday, January 05, 2014

A 1942 Incident that makes the Roswell story believable?

Benjamin Letzler, writing to the Editor(s) of The London Review of Books [January 9th 2014 issue, Page 4] recounts a story about the death of actress Carole Lombard (born in Fort Wayne, Indiana, where our media office is located).

Ms. Lombard (who was married to movie icon Clark Gable) died in a plane crash on January 16, 1942, the plane she was in shot down by Nazis over the Potosi Mountains in Nevada.

Orson Welles claimed that Lombard’s plane was machine-gunned as it climbed over the mountains. “The plane [contained 22, including 15 army servicemen and] was full of big-time American physicists, [and was] shot down by the Nazis. [Ms. Lombard] was one of the only civilians on the plane. The plane was filled with bullet holes … No one wanted to admit that we had people in the middle of America who could shoot down a plane for the Nazis.”

The information above is virtually unknown, or little known.

That a group sympathetic to the Nazis were able to pull off such a dastardly stunt and the story about it kept under wraps until recently tells us that secrets can be held for over 70 years and still be murky when disclosed.

Roswell’s secrets remain to be fully vetted, and the slide photos scheduled to appear this Spring will only provide one small addendum to what really happened near Roswell in July 1947.



  • Welles went on to say:

    "Now, I cannot swear it’s true. I’ve been told this by people who swear it’s true, who I happen to believe. "

    Have you heard the one about the escaped murderer with just a hook for a hand?


    By Blogger Lance, at Sunday, January 05, 2014  

  • The point, Lance, if there is one, is that information, true or false, surfaces long after the event(s) at the center.

    Roswell is a primary example.

    No matter what one thinks of that tale, it still can be mined for information or substance that matters, perhaps....one way or the other.

    Secrets (rumors that count) can stay hidden for a long time, and it's up to investigators to dig it out -- whether it's Mogul and Roswell or, your current obsession, The Tremonton/Newhouse Film.

    Being glib doesn't take us anywhere.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, January 05, 2014  

  • Just wait until I put the lampshade on my head!

    Well, it is an interesting story.

    Here is some more info on it:

    "The crash shocked a nation still stunned by the Pearl Harbor attack the month prior. Because it involved members of the military and a notable actress on a war-bonds drive, many, including FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, were suspicious of sabotage. An intensive investigation ensued.

    Joseph Szigeti, a Hungarian violinist who had given up his seat on the plane for a military member, was a suspect. But several months later it was determined that pilot error caused the crash.

    The flight had been scheduled to stop and refuel in Boulder City that evening. But because it was running behind schedule, and the Boulder City location was pitch black at night, the two pilots decided to land instead at at the Western Air Terminal at the Las Vegas Army Airfield, now Nellis Air Force Base.

    The DC-3 was refueled, then departed for California.

    The pilots, however, failed to change the departure and altitude settings that had been set when the plane was expected to leave from Boulder City, said Doug Scroggins, a local aviation archaeologist who has collected artifacts from the site for museum purposes. Scroggins is working to put together a memorial marker to recognize those who died on Flight 3.

    "If it was in Boulder City, the mountain would have been way off to the right, by about 15 to 20 miles," Scroggins said.

    Instead the plane slammed into the mountain, crumpled, then slid down."


    P.S. The Tremonton thing is like a case study of how UFO proponents get just about everything wrong. I love it.

    By Blogger Lance, at Sunday, January 05, 2014  

  • Lance, buddy, you still miss the point.

    The Nazi rumor or canard comes to the fore.

    Whether it's true or not is not germane.

    It's the "fact" that a new take on the plane crash is in the ether.

    It needs to be vetted, completely. not dismissed by presenting the cover story that you accept as the truth.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, January 05, 2014  

  • According to "another internet source", Jack El-hai, someone made an FOIA request for FBI documents concerning Lombard's death. According to Mr. El-hai there is no mention of 'bullet holes' or physicists on board the plane. He does mention there was report that the FBI followed up on a report from a CAA employee about a strange light seen on the mountain.

    Of course this is all hearsay. A quick scan of vault.fbi.gov shows no mention of the investigation.

    for more see:


    By Blogger gishzida, at Sunday, January 05, 2014  

  • No this 1942 incident, whether true or not, does not make Roswell more believeable.

    The reason is that Roswell implies a visit from intelligent ET beings, i.e. beings that are completely unknown to science, both then and now.

    The 1942 incident implies only a visit, or action, by Nazis or Nazi sympathisers, which people certainly existed in 1942.

    In one instance you have to postulate the action of something known to exist; in the other you have to involve things that do not exist. OK?

    I hope this answers your question, if it was a question.

    By Blogger cda, at Monday, January 06, 2014  

  • CDA...

    You and Lance appear to be baffled by a simple premise:

    A new tidbit of information, about a 1942 incident, appears after 70 years.

    Whether the tidbit is true or not has yet to be determined, actually, bit it shows that things of (maybe) importance) can surface that are germane to matters thought to be resolved.

    This applies to Roswell.

    You fellows think Roswell is sealed and delivered.

    It isn't.

    The Bragalia/Carey slides tell us that, and there's more to come.

    Whether Roswell was an ET event or not matters not to me, or to Nick Redfern, or to Paul Kimball, et al.

    The final resolution remains up in the air, whether you, Lance, or Gilles think otherwise or not.

    This 1942 Lombard affair tells me (and others) that we do not know everything about anything, and that strange things remain open to scrutiny and explanation.

    (Is 2014 your year to be obtuse?)


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, January 06, 2014  

  • Actually I may be obtuse but why is it 70 years since this revelation?

    Orson Welles died in 1985, so his utterances on this event were made before then, thus making the news only 40 or so years old when Welles spoke on it.

    Where and when did he utter his words, and why are the present revelations assumed to be 70 years old?

    Are you positive that it was never mentioned before, maybe even during WW2?

    By Blogger cda, at Monday, January 06, 2014  

  • What's going on with you?

    There isn't a topic at Kevin's blog that allows you to argue?

    The incident is revived and active now (or again) -- what does it matter?

    That the Nazi angle is afoot right now shows that such things, as with Roswell, can be revitalized and vetted anew to see if there is value in them.

    I won't go further with this Christopher, as you really are only in need of a debating fix.

    And i'm not going to accommodate you (or Lance).

    I'm pushing back on the skeptical stance you fellows have adopted.

    It's not rigorous, only annoying.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, January 06, 2014  

  • Whether one believes in labels as a Ufologist or a Fortean or a Skeptic, they all share a game that seeks causation, a linear, explanatory narrative of rationality upon the presumed threat of a blank page or two. You can count the agnostics with one hand. One could say in the stubbornness of a blank page, all realities are naive ones. Each little community has a certain provincial charm to them decorated with the minutia of their choosing as wallpaper.
    Yet in many instances this game field of a blank page or two becomes the molehill that appears to be a mountain, as if the solution to causation is why the milkman stops at this house versus the one across the street would assuage the discomfort of claimants. There is an air of romanticism about all this scuttling about the game field of blank pages. No one wants the game to stop. Each requires the cooperation of the other in a competition to corral the imagination in a tight noose. .while counting on the whole shebang remaining open ended. The Disneyland of the Mind...

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, January 06, 2014  

  • Don not take seriously the kooks who have their letters published in LRB--why, they once even published a letter from me. In any case, given the American propaganda offensive against Germany as the US entered the war. Welles's assertion that Roosevelt implemented an FBI cover-up of the real cause of the loss of TWA Flight 3, in order not to offend old immigrant ladies, is pure Wellesian foolishness, At least he got paid for telling us that "Almaden sells no wine before its time." Also, the plane was not "full of big-time American physicists." In addition to Lo Lombard-Gable and her mother and press agent, the passenger manifest lists 15 members of the Army Air Corps, and one Lois Hamilton of Detroit. The other passengers on the plane from Indianapolis and St. Louis were bumped at Albuquerque to make room for the airmen. 19 passengers and crew of 3 was a nearly full load for a TWA DC-3 SkyClub, so it is unlikely that there were any hot-shot physicists aboard, especially after the stop at Albuquerque. The plane had 21 passenger seats, so I suppose it is possible that two physicists occupied them and were left off the passenger manifest to mislead Nazi saboteurs--with no success. However, in 1942 there were 9 hull losses of DC-3/C-47 aircraft worldwide. most involving multiple fatalities: . Eerily similar to the fate of TWA 3 was that of UAL 4 at Salt Lake City on 1 May: controlled flight into terrain (a mountain) after an an explained course change.

    By Blogger FionnFile, at Tuesday, January 07, 2014  

  • After speaking with Douglas D. Dietrich I've been thoroughly persuaded that one can't assume that the 'truth' about Roswell is anything like the mythology. After all, the military keeps truth concealed by swathes of cover stories.
    His job was to burn milotary documents in the Presidio in S.F., and he's had access to some very interesting documentation.
    While it's entirely possible that Corso and others were looking at alien tech from another crash site, it appears that Roswell was really a disastrous test of captured Japanese technology involving superdirigibles and their attendant drogue aircraft - weapons used against China that never appeared in the Pacific theatre (along with 90% of the Japanese army btw).
    His DVD presentations are persuasive, to say the least.
    See http://beforeitsnews.com/paranormal/2013/10/douglas-dietrich-claims-roswell-crash-was-japanese-tech-2457538.html

    By Blogger new illuminati, at Wednesday, January 15, 2014  

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