UFO Conjecture(s)

Saturday, January 18, 2014

The Roswell Slides? Or the Aztec Slides?

Copyright 2014, InterAmerica, Inc.

Noted Spanish UFO researcher Jose Antonio Caravaca has found this document (about an oil drilling request for Sedona, Arizona) from the Oil and gas Conservation Commission of Arizona (The document dates from April 1965):

Commission Document (Click the download original spot to get paper)

Inside the document is this:

Señor Caravaca provides the material to bolster my conjecture that Aztec is really Roswell, which Frank Warren and Scott Ramsey dismiss as they are convinced that Aztec is a valid, verifiable flying saucer accident as outlined in the famous Frank Scully book, Behind the Flying Saucers [1950] and Anthony Bragalia, Tom Carey, Schmitt, et al. (The Roswell Investigations Team) eschew because they’ve invested so much time and effort in attempting to show that some slides, recently discovered, are of an alien from the alleged crash of a flying saucer near Roswell in 1947.

Here’s the nub of the story as the Roswell team understands it:

A geologist, Bernerd Ray, while on a trek with other geologists, near Roswell in 1947, stumbled upon an Army contingent protecting an other-worldly looking being.

Geologist Ray surreptitiously snapped, despite warnings from the military not to mention the matter, a few photos.

Geologist Ray’s wife. Hilda, hid the photos (Kodachrome slides) that recently surfaced during an estate resolution of her home and contents in Sedona, Arizona.

The persons in possession of the slides, along with the Roswell team, will present the slides at a news conference this year (2014).

During a review of the slides-finding, I (and others) discovered that Bernerd Ray went to work with Silas Newton shortly after 1947, during which, I suggest, he showed the slides to Newton (and Frank Scully’s wife) from which the Aztec story evolved, although the slides were taken of an incident in Roswell: the 1947 Roswell event that was covered up by the U.S. Army.

Now the questions that derive from this mangled story are these:

Did geologist Ray actually take his photos at Roswell, as circumstantial evidence seems to confirm?

Or are the slides, found hidden in the Ray home, actually slides of the Aztec beings that Skully, Ramsey, and Warren indicate were outside the alleged saucer crash in Aztec in March 1948, and ended up in the hands of Bernerd Ray?

How can we know, for certain, that the slides are from Roswell? We can’t.

There are, as far as I know, no verifiable elements in the slides themselves that prove they were taken near Roswell.

But were photos of the Aztec saucer crew taken by Bernerd Ray or someone he knew, and ended up in his possession, and ultimately hidden by his wife, Hilda, after her husband’s death? And why were they hidden?

If Aztec is an extrapolated story generated by Silas Newton after seeing photos taken by geologist Ray, why? (To further a Newton scheme that ended up in a fraud trial?)

What is the determinate provenance of the slides?

Yes, they are Kodak Kodachrome slides from the 1947 time-frame.

Bernerd Ray was on a field trip near Roswell in the July 1947 time-frame.

And the Ray’s were connected to notables such as President Eisenhower, indicating some claim to credibility and significant cachet. How did that come about?

Were the photos proffered to Frank Scully’s wife the very same slides that are now about to make a public appearance?

Or are the slides from a saucer crash at Aztec that Scully, Warren, and Ramsey think is an authentic UFO event?

The sensible view is that Bernerd Ray took some photos on slide film in 1947, likely from a geological stint, and his slides are from an accident of some kind near Roswell, which was the premise for the Flying Disk Found by the Army press release and ultimate Roswell incident story that befuddles and consumes UFO mavens to this day.

Aztec is a Silas Newton fiction that has little in the way of hard evidence.

But either way, the slides do not prove anything, except that a being of some kind was photographed.

Where, When, and What remain open to question.



  • Neither. The slides weren't taken at ANY crash site. In a building.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Saturday, January 18, 2014  

  • A building near Roswell?

    We can't know, can we?


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, January 18, 2014  

  • Nope we can't know where, that's the problem.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Saturday, January 18, 2014  

  • So, The Roswell Team (and we) are back to square one, apparently.

    That's damn frustrating, but you've said all along. Nick, that we will not very likely get the real, full story of Roswell at all.

    And Aztec is a poor sibling, despite the Ramsey/Warren declarations otherwise.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, January 18, 2014  

  • The interesting thing is that how did Ray gain access to the building the body was held? I actually can imagine in all the chaos at a desert crash site (and with multiple people running around like headless chickens) it just might be possible to stealthily take a couple of photos. But the body is in a building. How did Ray (if he was the photographer) gain access to the building? And if he did take the photo why was a guard not there to prevent him from doing so?

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Saturday, January 18, 2014  

  • Who told you the photo was taken in a building?

    Your sources are far better than mine.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, January 18, 2014  

  • The link to the PDF document and the image return a server error 500

    By Blogger gishzida, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Since I know you guys are interested in the "Roswell Slides", I thought I'd post a link here to a post by Edward Gehrman on the UFO Collective email discussion List, forwarding comments by Bob Shell. Bob Shell discusses various issues in relation to the slides, particularly film edge data and concludes : "There's no legitimate reason not to release the film edge data. The only reason to withhold this would be to cover up a hoax". See : https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ufo-collective/20140118083020.A214A21F%40m0005296.ppops.net.

    By Blogger Isaac Koi, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Thanks, Isaac,

    I've passed on your comment to Tony Bragalia, just to make sure he sees it.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Mr. RR-

    Please do tell: What evidence exists that Bernerd Ray worked for Silas Newton?

    I would love to see details on this and will of course credit you if this information is incorporated into a public narrative on the slides.

    I have no evidence that Ray even knew Newton...


    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Geez, Anthony,

    I provided that information in a posting (two postings actually) last year.

    Do I need to dredge it up for you?

    (I know you want to cement Ray to Roswell, and his connection to Newton doesn't destroy that connection, but Ray/Newton does explain how Aztec came about.)


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Oh man Leute, seht es endlich ein: das ist die außerirdische Wahrheit!!!

    In Roswell stürzte 1947 ein bzw. zwei außerirdische Raumschiffe ab aber sie wurden mit Absicht vom Himmel geholt und sind nicht eigener Schuld abgestürzt!

    By Blogger Michael Loengard, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Michael's comment translated:

    Oh you people see it finally: this is the extraterrestrial truth!

    In 1947 Roswell crashed one or two alien spaceships from but they were brought purposely from the sky and are not their own fault crashed!

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Hey Rich
    I have been digging into all this very deep and without revealing how, it is indeed true that the imagery is building-based not ranch land, desert, or on the back of a military truck etc

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Thanks, Nick...

    I have a note from Tony Bragalia, hoping that I keep what I know secret or private.

    I told him those days are over: no more UFO secrets or private information.

    If I know something or think I know something, I'm putting it online here or somewhere.

    The old way of secreting information from people does not sit well with me.

    And I think you feel the same way.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • well, as you know I had that Midland, TX source, and so I don't see any issue with revealing what that person told me, since it's not violating anything told in confidence by others. And what he told me has indeed been shown to be right on the mark.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Hi, how does nick know for certain that these photos where taken in a building?

    since that is significant infomation as it kind of does away with the idea that Geologists stumbled upon a army mop up out in the Roswell desert.

    Does Nick know something that Anthony does not know?

    By Blogger Al12, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • I have a new (?) theory about Roswell/Aztec, which is this:

    After the Roswell crash the ETs decided to launch a rescue mission. The time it took to relay the information back to Zeta Reticuli (where else?) and the time it took to launch the rescue meant it was about 8 months before this mission finally reached earth.

    Unfortunately the rescue craft was slightly off in their estimate of where the Roswell craft crashed, and thus landed at Aztec by mistake. Navigational failure you see - they did not then possess such things as those GPS systems we now take for granted.

    In addition it developed a mechanical fault and also crashed.

    A great pity, but such was the danger of space travel, even by advanced ETs, in the late 1940s.

    Anyway, that is my learned analysis. This surely surpasses any of the ideas proposed by Nick Redfern or Tony Bragalia.

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Yes, CDA...

    Your hypothetical is as good as any.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • AI12: I know.

    None of my info comes from the Dream Team.

    It's in a building, and all that stuff about a cloth, rag or blanket placed on the genitals of the creature for modesty reasons is nonsense.

    The body has a sign in front of it and it is that sign which hides parts of the body. The sign has writing on it. Now, if that can be deciphered...

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • What I know doesn't matter though, as when everyone gets to see it, that will be the story. Then the debate will no doubt begin as to what the body actually is!

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Nick

    If that is true then the conjecture that they were discovered in the desert by the geologists isn't accurate then.
    This all muddles the water further, if they were taken in a building how did Bernard obtain them, since presumably he wouldn't have clearance to see the body's, perhaps he was given them from someone?

    By Blogger Al12, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • AI12: yep very true, and as I noted in an earlier comment on this very issue in this same thread:

    "The interesting thing is that how did Ray gain access to the building the body was held? I actually can imagine in all the chaos at a desert crash site (and with multiple people running around like headless chickens) it just might be possible to stealthily take a couple of photos. But the body is in a building. How did Ray (if he was the photographer) gain access to the building? And if he did take the photo why was a guard not there to prevent him from doing so?"

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Nick,

    I guess we, ll just have to wait an see now but I have feeling from what you've said that Bernard didn't take this slides.
    He was perhaps given them from someone, he did apparently know people high up since the are supposedly slides with him an president Eisenhower.
    An he's just kept the pictures of the creature hidden probably for obvious reasons at the time.

    By Blogger Al12, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • A person who inspected the slides told me that the being looked unworldly and was on a gurney, in the open, covered by an army blanket to midriff.

    Did this person give me a bogus description to prevent a premature disclosure by me?



    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Rich: Yep it's complicated, but I was told by an equally good source that it's in a building, showing a sign, with writing on that is hard to decipher. I guess we wait and see!

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • I'd recommend u ask your source if the building/sign story is bogus...

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • I think u will find the sign/hard to decipher sign story is the real one...

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • Ever since my source said my expose of the slides was made from whole cloth, then retracted that when Paul Kimball presented the truth, I am disinclined to accept what I'm told by him pretty much.

    So I accept your source as more reliable.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, January 19, 2014  

  • RR-

    Yet, sometimes even having the photo of something unusual is insufficient to provide an answer:


    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Monday, January 20, 2014  

  • Off-topic KP but interesting.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, January 20, 2014  

  • RR:

    To be serious (at least that is what I believe I am in this instance):

    What is your real purpose in introducing this topic, i.e. the Aztec/Roswell slides?

    Have you any reason to believe that something useful and interesting to science will emerge one day, or are you merely trying to stir up certain individuals into a kind of tittle-tattle about trivia?

    By Blogger cda, at Monday, January 20, 2014  

  • CDA:

    I'm trying to accomplish a few things.

    That Aztec is not a real event; it is a confabulation (or confusion) of the Roswell incident.

    I've been a fan of Scully's book and story, as you know. (It was my first oral book report in high school and I started a Flying Saucer Club because of it.) But I'm convinced that Scully was snookered by Silas Newton (and others) as I've shown in previous postings.

    Aztec was and is a fiction based in the Roswell event.

    The slides allegedly from Roswell essentially prove nothing. There is no real provenance and the image(s) of a being are open to question.

    And some persons think their favorite UFO story (whether Aztec or Roswell) is not as important or as big as they think it is.

    Something odd happened near Roswell in 1947. What that was is yet to be determined.

    Nick Redfern thinks it may never fully be discerned by investigators but I think what happened can be discovered, despite all the jetsam and flotsam created by UFO-ET enthusiasts.

    Finally, I want to make the point that UFO information is not to be held hostage by a few. Whatever is known or found should be shared and open to scrutiny, even though a few loons (as Paul Kimball has it) will weigh in with their nutty and meaningless asides.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, January 20, 2014  

  • RR, let me respectfully disagree with your contention that all the information pertaining to the slides should be released immediately. If the researchers are attempting to obtain truly independent corroboration for sundry issues concerning the slides, releasing too much information out into the public too soon could very easily end up sabotaging such efforts since it would be that subsequent to a disclosure of that sort, no source could any longer be judged as being truly independent. It is a common tactic for the police to withhold details of an ongoing investigation for this exact reason. If you want to establish with certainty that someone is genuinely confirming the details of a case to you, then it is imperative that you ensure that the person didn't really just learn those details from you in the first place!

    Of course, it could turn out that the researchers are taking the clandestine approach that they are for reasons less honorable than the ones which I impute to them; I can obviously only speculate here.

    By Blogger Jok Mlok, at Monday, January 20, 2014  

  • Jok...

    I've presented the latest protocols for research when we last went down this road about what should be released from or for a science project.

    Holding back information is no longer part of the regimen for researchers.

    Those who have something new to impart now look to colleagues (and others) to add to their finds, without waiting until a denouement.

    It's old school to hold back information, even in law enforcement as 9/11 and certain murder cases have shown.

    Present the information extant and researchers will have their work supplemented or dismissed without the time-lag of the past when time and money were lesser issues.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, January 20, 2014  

  • I think we can see things differently. The case revelations Snowden shows that the NSA leaves nothing happen and even try to anticipate future problems on what she wants to leave absolutely secret. Soon there will be revelations about the assassinations of personalities perpetrated by the NSA. Keeping information secret for too long, allowing the NSA or another secret office have time to prepare a defense, rewrite information on a particular character of the case, or try to discredit characters of the case. I think that you should never keep too long this kind of information with you. Because the NSA or another office probably monitor all movements and conversations of members of the dream team. Do not understand what is not know who you're dealing with. When the slides come out in public, an argument will already be ready to be opposite.

    By Blogger Unknown, at Monday, January 20, 2014  

  • Folks...this is to laugh.

    I dare say that I know far, far more about this than anyone on here:

    Silas Newton said his aliens looked exactly like human beings. Never mentioned is that he also said that they were dressed in "1890s" style clothing and that all had perfect teeth...

    The Ray slide do not show this- it is not human, is not dressed in old clothing and does not appear to have teeth. If Silas had heard about the Ray alien, or if here were even 'inspired' by it- Silas' alien would reflect what the slides depict. They do not.


    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Monday, January 20, 2014  

  • Anthony:

    Why would Newton think Ray's slides were pertinent to his fictive story?

    Newton knew about the Roswell incident from military sources as I noted last year in my initial connection of Aztec to Roswell.

    The slides have nothing to do with Ray working for Newton or even anything to do with how Roswell was made into Aztec.

    The connection is mere propinquity.

    Newton's information (and scam) was a creation meant for saps, such as Scully who fell for it.

    Ray's slides are a separate issue and meaningless in reality as they have no determined provenance.

    They just are.

    You are hanging your hat on an ultimate chimera.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, January 20, 2014  

  • Anthony,

    If you know more on here than most ( an i dont doubt that you dont ) then is what Nick says about the slides being taken in a building correct.

    By Blogger Al12, at Tuesday, January 21, 2014  

  • It's true! The stuff about a desert site, a crash site, a ranch site and all that re a cloth hiding its genitals etc is crap! As some here will know, I have a Midland, Texas source who was provided a wealth of info on all this and I can assure you there is NO crash site in the imagery.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, January 21, 2014  

  • Nick is absolutely correct- and Nick called me some time ago when his Midland source contacted him.

    I do not know what the "issue" is here- we are in agreement.

    There is a placard, it is in some sort of structure.

    All2- I don't know who you are, but you very obviously do not know who I am or what my role has been in this: I am the one on the team who discovered that Bernerd Ray was an oil exploration geologist working NM in the 1940s.


    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Tuesday, January 21, 2014  

  • Anthony, Nick

    It's not really an issue it's just it was hypothesised that Bernard stumbled upon it in the desert.

    With the creature being photographed in a building or structure to me as I said to nick it confuses it more since it isn't certain Bernard took them as Geologists usually work outside.

    By Blogger Al12, at Tuesday, January 21, 2014  

  • Yes AI12...

    Initially the rumor was that Bernerd Ray stumbled upon the Army's mop-up of an "accident" -- the Roswell incident -- with a geology team, and snapped his photos surreptitiously, against the Army's proviso not to do so.

    That story has changed it seems.

    And having Geologist Ray in a building surely confuses the matter.

    How did he get in the building? Why would he want to?

    Where is said building?

    The area where the geology team was had no building near by.

    Something's fishy here.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, January 21, 2014  

  • RR

    You've just summoned up perfectly the points am trying to make.

    Ones hoping some answers will fit the jigsaw to these legitimate points soon.

    By Blogger Al12, at Tuesday, January 21, 2014  

  • AI12...

    I'm in communication with Tony Bragalia and Nick Redfern.

    Tony is hesitant to tell me much as he knows I hate secrets.

    And I didn't know Nick was getting his information from Mr. Bragalia; information that I was not and am not privy to.

    The questions I raise, like yours, need to be clarified as the scenario doesn't add up or make sense in the context of a geology outing.

    This may skunk the slides' significance if the questions are not answered when the time comes.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, January 21, 2014  

  • Rich: My info comes from the Midland, TX source, NOT Tony. All the info I got re the building and the sign etc came from the Midland source. I shared that info with you Rich, and with Tony, and you'll recall it was also the subject of a post right here a couple of months back, where I spelled out my role in this re the Midland, TX source. That's the extent. Anything shared with Tony by me is the same shared by me to you.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, January 21, 2014  

  • Rich:

    Here's the article I wrote for your own blog, which notes my info was NOT coming from Tony but from a source in Midland, TX.

    I made all this clear back in September!

    Yes, me and Tony have had occasional chats about this, as you know, but in those chats I have shared with Tony what I have uncovered in the same way I have shared it with you.

    Here's the link where it's made clear my info was NOT coming from Tony but was shared with the Dream Team in a phone call, in the same way I shared it with you:


    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, January 21, 2014  

  • Nick:

    I understand from where you got your information.

    Tony told me today that he confirmed what you know and found out.

    I know Tony's hesitation in keeping me in the loop as I am prone to spill the beans -- upsetting the Team's apple cart as it were.

    For me, secrets are anathema but I understand Tony's and the Team's need to keep things close to the vest as to divulge what is what to the UFO hoi polloi would screw up everything.

    The persons drooling over the slides are not temperate or thoughtful.

    They could cause the guy holding the slides to back off.

    About that I don't care.

    The slides won't clinch the Roswell story and it seems the photos are as iffy as everything else about Roswell, as you know.

    So, no need to on your part to explain anything.

    I know where you're coming from.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, January 21, 2014  

  • RR

    like youve said we,ll just have to wait an see, but this information is in my opinion is significant
    otherwise all where left with are photos of a dead creature which might or might not be related to Roswell.
    you couldve related it to roswell if Bernard did stumble upon this on an geologists outing but that theory has now been shot down.

    By Blogger Al12, at Wednesday, January 22, 2014  

  • As usual AI12,

    A UFO event gets bobbled by all the machinations of participants, investigators, and wannabes.

    There is a controversy brewing between Spanish UFO researchers and the Roswell Team over the venue of the pending slide news conference.

    It's starting to get messy which, I bet, makes skeptics overjoyed.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, January 22, 2014  

  • But, RR, getting "messy" is not unusual and certainly not unique to the UFO world. Politics is messy; making movies is messy; buying and selling real estate is messy; getting married and divorced is messy. And, yes, even doing good hard science is messy, even very messy, if you have followed some of the controversies. In short, let's not get too far down on the UFO factions and near-nut jobs: they are only slightly ahead of the "messy" curve when it comes to dealing with life's problems.

    By Blogger Dominick, at Wednesday, January 22, 2014  

  • How could I not agree with you Dominick?


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, January 22, 2014  

  • RR

    have I read you right?

    They are arguing over which venue to release the slides, arguing with Spanish ufo researchers?

    Isn't a venue just a venue, crazy.

    By Blogger Al12, at Wednesday, January 22, 2014  

  • The Spanish UFO guys insist that the conference will be held in Mexico City but Anthony Bragalia demures.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, January 22, 2014  

  • RR

    Fair enough

    By Blogger Al12, at Wednesday, January 22, 2014  

  • What a merry dance this has been

    The latest revelations pertaining to this saga, and the attempts made to obfuscate them, suggest there is a scam afoot.

    If the truth is that these pictures were captured inside what one would assume would be a highly secure building, it is almost certain that Bernerd Ray was not the photographer, and consequently he is as irrelevant as the bozo who currently has them in his possession.

    Assuming the story of how this material was discovered is accurate (which is by no means certain) there is no way of knowing when Bernerd Ray came into possession of it, or indeed if his wife was the chosen custodian. We also have no way of knowing who provided the material.

    Having wasted their own time on this nonsense for a couple of years, the Dreamers now finally propose to present this rubbish to the wider world, making further public mockery of a subject so moribund the air is fetid by the stench of carrion.

    What you have gentlemen is some blurry pictures. These do not require a press conference, merely a rubbish bin.

    By Blogger Ross, at Wednesday, January 22, 2014  

  • This building that the geologist had no reason to be in... Would it be the kind with featureless grey walls that could be any warehouse on earth by any chance?

    By Blogger Red Eye View, at Friday, January 24, 2014  

  • Ross-

    Blurry? No.
    Only your thinking is clouded.


    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Friday, January 24, 2014  

  • Anthony,

    They can't exactly be crystal clear if the placard is unreadable.

    My thinking was clouded in that I did for a time entertain the belief that there might be something to this material, but that folly has passed.

    If the huckster in possession of this material truly believed it to show what is claimed, there is no way it would not have been revealed to the public by now. However, that promised payday remains elusive.

    By Blogger Ross, at Friday, January 24, 2014  

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