UFO Conjecture(s)

Monday, May 19, 2014

Nick Redfern and his Indiana Jones approach to Roswell

http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2014/05/roswell-the-indiana-jones-scenario/

34 Comments:

  • It was a project on which a massive number of people worked, but that remained secret for years. [about Manhattan Project]

    Hello Nick and all,

    OK, but when it was exhumed (by FOIA, etc) historiographical dataes concerning Manhattan, Trinity, etc, the officers in charge are not lying or hidding the project [i]between them[/i] when discussing/mailing/reporting about.
    Concerning UFO, many documents have been exhumed (by Pflock, Todd, Jeffrey & Klass), and the documents point /stipulate B&W such officers in charge of the UFO porblem have NO crashed material, artefact. They spocke between them, not to the public...

    For the comparison with Manhattan, you are aware of any classified documents where officers in charge of the program are denying the existence of Mahattan between them?

    So the "comparison" and analogy is "fallacious" imho.

    Regards,

    Gilles.

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Totally wrong.

    Are you really so incredibly naive???

    Yes, the documents DO state no crashed UFOs.

    So what?

    If aliens did crash at Roswell, then (as I note in my article) the likelihood is that the secrecy is overseen by an elite group.

    In that sense, any regular agency would likely no nothing more than you, me, or anyone else.

    So, any denial re the UFO program would be born out of ignorance/being unaware of what was being hidden, not from denying it/lying about it to hide a secret.

    When the GAO went looking for Roswell documents in 1994, I truly don't believe they (or the agencies they approached) were lying when they said they couldn't find any Roswell-related files.

    I think they couldn't find any files because the files aren't held by the regular agencies.

    Someone else has them - and it's that someone else we should focus on, not the USAF etc, who are clearly out the loop.




    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Ah ok,Nick, I'm the incredible naive here.

    So, for example :
    Twining memo of September 23, 1947:
    The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects.
    March 17, 1948:
    ... I can’t even tell you how much we would give to have one of those crash in an area so that we could recover whatever they are.

    Etc, you know like me what are the historiographical (declassified) sources I'm refering.

    Such officers in charge of the UFO phenomenom on this era are hidding infos between them... Huhu!

    Only an "elite" investigator like you, Nick, can propose "the secrecy is overseen by an elite group".

    Which one is this group, you have discovered as an elite investigator, please?

    Regards,

    Gilles.

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Number 1: I'm not an elite investigator.

    Number 2: I don't appreciate sarcasm.

    Number 3: You say: "Which one is this group, you have discovered as an elite investigator, please?"

    If I had found the group, there would be no need for my article to be written, as we would know the truth!

    Jeez....

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Well, Nick,

    You have not explained why the men in charge of the UFO phenomenom in this era stipulate B&W in declassified documents they have not ALIEN artefacts, wreckages, etc...

    If you can imagine they are lying between them, well, your trip! I respect the trip of ufologists, after all... ^^

    The ad hoc argument regarding the documents stipulating they are NONE alien artefacts recovered by the men in charge of the UFO phenomenemon, is that there exists a supra-group who knows...

    Hoo well, that's ufology, after all...

    Cya.

    Gilles.


    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Jesus Christ...

    I have consistently said that IF a UFO did crash in 1947, then the people "in the know" were not the people we might expect to know.

    In the same way that I don't believe that today's USAF knows anymore about Roswell than we do.

    Again, IF aliens did crash at Roswell, it would be such an extraordinary event, that I can see why such an extraordinary group would be established to deal with it.

    Those in officialdom who claim not to know are not lying. They don't know; they are out of the loop.

    That goes for GAO, Colonel Weaver, etc. None of them lied. They tried to find the answers, and came up with answers which I believe are incorrect.

    But they weren't lying about anything. They couldn't find anything!

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • But Nick,

    While this construction of a basically magical group of conspirators does protect your theory from falsification, why should anyone give any weight to the idea while it lacks, as it does, any single scrap of actual evidence.

    At this point the all powerful conspiracy exists ONLY as an idea. Even worse, the same kind of omnipotent conspiracy is also cobbled together for virtually every nutty conspiracy idea (9/11 Truth, Birthers, JFK conspiracy, chemtrails, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.)

    Calling someone naive who simply states that:

    1. There is no concrete evidence for the idea you present.
    2. Existing concrete evidence is disconfirming for the idea.

    seems particularly unfair.

    Lance

    By Blogger Lance, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Lance:

    There's no reason anyone should or shouldn't give it weight because it's theory and nothing else.

    For example, I start the article with an "If..." This demonstrates my theory is based around the another theory - that aliens crashed.

    I make it clear throughout the article we are dealing with a theoretical group that may explain why we can't find anything.

    Nowhere in the article do I try and reinforce the idea that I know of such a group, or that I suspect it can be found here or there.

    No, what I do is present a wholly theoretical scenario that is reliant on a theoretical group.

    If I was doing otherwise, you would have a point.

    But I make it clear, it's a theory. And look at the sub-title of the article "...Scenario."

    Yes, it's a scenario to try and answer the issue of why we can't get the Roswell info.

    Re "seems particularly unfair."

    I couldn't give a fuck.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • When I read Nick's piece, it couldn't be much clearer that it was hypothetical.There was an interesting twist in the possibility that an advanced technology might not be usable. It might be for all practical purposes useless just as a cell phone in the hands of a 19th Century individual would be worthless. This is conceptual in the universe of ideas juxtaposed against the stereotypes of Corso etc, not a traceable, verbatim postulate and I am surprised at the wringing of hands over it.
    Must be a slow day.
    As far as untraceable secrecy is concerned, take a look at the defense black budget hidden in plain sight.You folks have no more
    idea of what the code terms mean than I do.
    I do not believe in the ET Roswell mythology but it can be a platform to ponder other issues, which seems to have escaped the critics.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Actually I like your scenario and commend you for putting it forward.

    The major problem with the alien crash explanation for Roswell has always been that vast resources would have been spent to solve the mystery (especially of the power plant) yet none of the insiders involved (and there must have been hundreds) has ever revealed involvement. Totally strange. In my own studies of business (price) consiracies, someone somewhere almost always talks. A 70 year conspiracy with no talking would be simply impossible. So, Nick, to suggest that the mystery was simply tucked away (because the technology was light years beyond 1947 and even 2014)is not unreasonable. Even Newton, if he had found a modern cellphone, would have had to put it away eventually.

    By Blogger Dominick, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Someone just told me the link to the article is showing an error right now.

    Probably due to the nefarious actions of that theoretical group getting all bent out of shape - theoretically, of course...

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Nick,
    With the "if", you could give/send many "what if?". And that's ufology!

    But with the "what" concerning declassified documents, then historiographical EVIDENCE, it is clear the people who have investigated the UFO and protected by "secret" (ignoring future FOIA), stated clearly they have NOT artefacts, exhibits, alien crashes, etc. BETWEEN THEM (and then protected to speack about as the men in charge of UFO!).
    Another evidence(s), Roswell is a modern myth ;)

    Regards,

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Dominick

    Thanks for the comment.

    One of the reasons why (if aliens DID crash) I think this theory is valid is because of the bodies.

    We hear a lot of stories of military people seeing alien bodies in cryogenic storage, with guards on the door etc.

    But that's all. There are dozens of accounts like that, and maybe they are real.

    What we lack, however, are dozens of accounts of military people witnessing scientists actually doing something with the bodies, such as detailed studies.

    As may be the case with the wreckage, it seems (from the accounts, at least) the bodies are now in a kind of museum scenario, rather than in an investigative lab scenario.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Gilles:

    Just because the representative of one agency makes a statement they do not have ET artifacts, does not rule out that another group may have the proof.

    I don't know if aliens have crashed, but I think it's fair to say that if they have, then the unique circumstances of the event might result in the creation of a unique group - which may explain inconsistencies over why we have emphatic denials from certain agencies.

    Far too many people accuse "the government" as being the bad guys. When it comes to UFOs, I think "the government" is out of the loop.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Again, Nick...

    Which SUPRA/HYPER/MEGA group you will invent ad hoc here?

    And regarding or counter argumenting the multiple historiographical documents we have, released/exhumed by Todd, Klass, Jeffrey & Pflock, as others?

    Stating clearly NO ALIEN ARTEFACTS.

    Despite they were the groupS devoted on this question/thematic.

    It have no sens, excepted in ufology and by its conpiratists...

    Regards.

    Gilles

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Gilles:

    You say:

    "Which SUPRA/HYPER/MEGA group you will invent ad hoc here?"

    I'm not inventing anything. My article makes it very clear that I am being wholly hypothetical.

    Again...it doesn't matter that we have documents showing no knowledge of crashed UFO events, if the secret was held tightly by another group.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • “Twining memo of September 23, 1947:
    The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects.
    March 17, 1948:
    ... I can’t even tell you how much we would give to have one of those crash in an area so that we could recover whatever they are."

    Hello Gilles, I believe that such comments were excessively specific as to what Twining did not have in terms of evidence.
    I mean, if UFOs don't exist at all. ¿How did Twining know that it was possible that a UFO could crash producing “undeniable” evidence of its existence?
    Very suspicious. Those comments were excessively aimed. I believe that Twining indeed belonged to the MJ group.

    By Blogger Don Maor, at Monday, May 19, 2014  

  • Ok Nick, it was an "hypothetical" scenario/i and exercice probably.

    Again,"my" point is the crashed spaceship link is missing in each declassified documents exhumed by Pflock, Jeffrey, Todd & Klass, etc.
    Documents where it was the men in charge of the UFO and to "crack" them, and discussing between them!

    Such documents were the products of, and adressed to, these men at the head of the problem and devoted on.

    To take out such historiographical facts and dataes, some must invent other supra men and hyper-organizations ; Or defend such gentlemen are denying, lying between them, or simply ignoring the recovery of an alien craft and his occupants, despite they were the men in charge of the UFO problem, as to crack it...

    The painting depicted here by some ufologists is USAF men at the head of the UFO problem really loosing their time, because USAF supra-head knows UFO are aliens because they have recovered alien artefacts in 1947. A surrealist painting, then!

    That's imho reaching the very bad faith, or a terrible and infamous attempt to regulate the system of belief (Roswell is an ET. crash) by some, due to some cognitive dissonance mecanisms cause such documents exhumed?

    Regards,

    Gilles.

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • Don Maor:

    For heavens sake please do not resurrect MJ-12.

    Nick:

    If a supersecret group of people exists (unknown to anyone else including the US military and political leaders) that knows about the Roswell bodies and wreckage but cannot or will not do anything about it, why bother with the incident at all?

    Here is the (theoretical) story as Nick proposes:

    1. A machine crashes in New Mexico
    2. The USAF recovers it.
    3. The USAF hands it over to this supersecret group that nobody knows about.
    4. This group stores the damn stuff away, literally forever, because it is totally beyond them what to do with it.
    5. This secret group, presumably by now, has died off one by one.
    6. The damn debris/bodies are still stashed away, but nobody knows where.

    Nick: please continue this story. What, in your view, will happen next?

    Since nobody knows anything and it is all theoretical anyway, what happens now, and in the future? Maybe someone somewhere is gifted with ESP and can deduce where this stuff is stored. Maybe.

    Where does this fanciful tale lead us?

    By Blogger cda, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • I can see that the dialog based on a general theoretical premise as presented by Nick has once again become bogged down in the architecture of Roswell minutiae.There seems to be a compulsive myopia that cannot escape this framework when discussing simple possibilities.
    The question should be simplified. Can military secrets be held for an extended period of time?
    I think the answer is yes. Whether it is the development and testing of X craft right under our noses or Patton’s “ghost army”, or the wealth of yet to be declassified documents that no one has talked out of school about, I would say the success rate is surprisingly good.
    Another obvious conundrum that is simple revolves around the nonsensical multiple story lines that the military has fostered while explaining nothing in terms of the ham fisted attempt to pull a ruse over whatever did happen there and why. Every story line is ludicrous. And so..I would think it’s reasonable to suggest something has been buried and very successfully at that.
    While I don’t think it has to do with a crashed spaceship, all of this past rubbish and the obsessive fascination with it as sacred objects of focus has seemingly led everyone to be hoisted by their own petards.
    Skeptics and advocates alike.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • Also
    Has it occurred to anyone beside Nick and this writer that the entire scenario was a concocted mirage? If anyone read Nick's article he says very clearly that this is the strongest possibility.So right there you know that his extrapolations of possibilities is simply a exchange of other possibilities countering his own suspicions.In other words, the way it reads to me is it is exploring other possibilities as a foil. As the old saying goes, if nothing is true then all things are possible in terms of imagining rather than proving what could be. This is what a writer does as a creative exercise. All of this seems to have been shoved aside in a turgid overly qualified positivism of half baked factoids arising from a mirage.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • CDA:

    You say:

    "1. A machine crashes in New Mexico."

    In theory, yes.

    "2. The USAF recovers it."

    In theory, yes.

    "3. The USAF hands it over to this supersecret group that nobody knows about."

    Eventually. If the theory has merit, such a group may have been created months or even a couple of years later.

    "4. This group stores the damn stuff away, literally forever, because it is totally beyond them what to do with it."

    In theory yes, because the technology is beyond our capabilities to do anything with it of a "back-engineering nature."

    "5. This secret group, presumably by now, has died off one by one."

    Of course not. That's ridiculous. There would still have to be an overseeing body to ensure that the material was hidden, protected, and maintained (particularly so the bodies) for years/decades to come.

    "6. The damn debris/bodies are still stashed away, but nobody knows where."

    Wrong. The group knows where.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • What the "Twining Memo" recounts is the opinion of AMC of the reports that were submitted to them. I don't have the exact date in mind. It was either immediately before or immediately after the 4th that General Twining requested saucer reports be sent to AMC.

    The "Twining Memo" is their opinion of the content of the reports.

    What were those reports? I think they would be from the 1947 Wave. Since the TM is shortly after the peak of the wave and the process of collection and the time for AMC to evaluate them means the wave would be a necessary terminus.

    I think Twining would want the most trustworthy reports, and that would mean to him AAF officers' reports of their sightings and encounters, with some civilian accounts that might be of special interest.

    AMC says, this is our opinion of these reports. We don't have reports domestic (aka, the USN) or foreign (aka, the reds), and reports are not materials, which is what we do, so this report is 'qualified'.

    Nick, I sympathize.

    Best Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • I forgot to answer CDA's final question, which was: "Where does this fanciful tale lead us?"

    Nowhere.

    My article (as I have stated here repeatedly)was 100 percent hypothetical.

    It's a hypothesis born out of what I see is a big issue: if the Roswell event did involve aliens (which in itself is not proved), then a major back-engineering program would have been created, and we would surely have seen a program that - in both scope and size - would mirror the Apollo moon landing program.

    There's no way such a program could be hidden.

    Which is why I think the answer could be that no advances have been made because the technology is so advanced/odd that it defies our ability to understand.

    And how many times can you prod and poke a battered old corpse?

    So, faced with a 100 percent inability to comprehend, reproduce, or make use of, the alien technology, it goes from being a potential groundbreaking program to the equivalent of a museum - albeit a highly classified one.

    And (hopefully for the last time), for those who can't seem to understand what I wrote, yes this IS all hypothetical!

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • One other thing: in terms of logistics, if absolutely nothing is being done with the wreckage, then hiding it (probably somewhere deep underground, along with the bodies), would be no more difficult than hiding a double-decker London bus.

    The logistics (and maintaining the secrecy) are only a problem when a major program is initiated to actually do something with the materials.

    But hiding it, and doing absolutely nothing with it (because nothing CAN be done with it) would actually be a very easy task, and something that could be hidden from prying eyes easily too.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • It could be hidden in a containment pit into which no one with a desire to live would enter.

    All that remains to do is to erase the traces of it getting there.

    Not to get all X-Filish about it but nothing disappears without a trace.

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • As a context the concealment of information is a territorial pergative in any contest as an American tradition. Whether it’s the billions of dollars allocated to secret projects, the recent GM scandal, the funding of political PACs, etc etc. Theres no mandatory legal standard that is enforceable to repeal what is considered a pragmatic necessity. You could say it’s rigged as far as one can take it, and tn this era of extremes, it’s pretty much business as usual. The U.S corporations keep their advances secret and the Chinese steal them in secret. The appearance of concealment can also be a ruse as in poker. Or counter-intelligence operations.
    In this case, it’s suppositions atop suppositions driven by inference. Nothing more than that
    Secret Kodachromes, secret anonymous sources, secret courts to determine the willful legal violation of the right to privacy,..as far as keeping secrets secret..btw..
    Where is the corpse of Jimmy Hoffa?

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • Nick,

    I've suspected for years that the ONLY thing recovered at Roswell was the debris described by Marcel and Bill Brazel.

    I imagine that the powers that be have a box of this stuff and have no idea who created it or where it came from, and that the box stays locked away. Every ten years or so a few new PhDs are asked to examine it, and when they can't make heads or tails out of it the box is locked again and filed away...

    By Blogger Capt Steve, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • Steve:

    Yes, I agree. I made that point in my article, that all we really have (in terms of credible witnesses) is the recovery of a large field of baffling material, but no craft, "power-plant" etc.

    And even if there were bodies of some sort (as I think there were), and even if they were alien, there's probably very little you can do with the debris and bodies, beyond confirming suspicions that someone - from somewhere else - is skulking around.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • Hello,
    For the anecdote, when this thread emerged here, I was writing for my blog an article (in fact a translation in French) of what Pflock did in Fortean Times in 1998 concerning "declassified documents and Roswell" (For your Eyes only as Tim Printy in a SUNlite.

    That's online now at my blog for those interested.

    Regards,

    Gilles.

    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • Nick
    As I said in another post I think you are right in thinking they found something. However I think it was planted. Probably via an air drop.
    As far as keeping the material, it was probably destroyed a long, long time ago. yet it remains a very old hot potato as a covert operation.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Tuesday, May 20, 2014  

  • That's definitely an interesting theory. Not unlike the WW2-era "The Man Who Never Was" story...

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Wednesday, May 21, 2014  

  • Would those who planted it be the ones who first called it a flying disc and then a few hours later called it a weather balloon and rawin? If so, what purpose was served?

    Regards,

    Don

    By Blogger Don, at Wednesday, May 21, 2014  

  • Don:

    I think Bruce's theory as to why, was to fool the Russians into thinking we had saucer debris.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Thursday, May 22, 2014  

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