UFO Conjecture(s)

Wednesday, September 03, 2014

David Rudiak responds but....

I got a comment from David Rudiak for the posting prior to this but I'm not putting it down for posterity. It was a personal attack, which David can't refrain from doing....he has little sense of humor when it comes to Roswell or UFOs altogether.

But I'd like to insist that in the Roswell time-frame there were lots of balloon tests going on, besides Mogul or Helios. For example, this from the NASA archives:

A description is presented of main balloon applications, giving attention to the Skyhook project, the Moby-Dick project, the Transosonde project, the Rockoon project, and the projects Stratolab and Manhigh.

David is fixated on Mogul and we all know why, don't we?

Mac Brazel was a dolt, and his "debris" was balloon scrap, just as the Army said.

RR

12 Comments:

  • RRR: But I'd like to insist that in the Roswell time-frame there were lots of balloon tests going on, besides Mogul or Helios. For example, this from the NASA archives:

    A description is presented of main balloon applications, giving attention to the Skyhook project, the Moby-Dick project, the Transosonde project, the Rockoon project, and the projects Stratolab and Manhigh.


    HISTORICAL REALITY:

    First flights of these balloon projects (look them up yourself if you don't believe me):

    Skyhook (then Helios) first flight, September 25, 1947, Minnesota (NOT New Mexico)

    Moby-Dick: 1950-51

    Rockoon: Early 1950s

    Stratolab: 1954

    Man High: 1956

    Transosonde: 1957

    Perhaps Rich can tell us how any of these are in the July 1947 Roswell time frame?

    RRR: David is fixated on Mogul and we all know why, don't we?

    REALITY: It is the Roswell debunkers fixated on Mogul as what Brazel supposedly found: Robert Todd, AFOSI, CSICOP/Skeptical Inquirer, Charles Moore, Dave Thomas, Tim Printy, Christopher Allen, Lance Moody, Gilles Fernandez, etc.

    All I've said is that the actual historical documentation proves the alleged Mogul flight never existed. Any "obsession" I have with Mogul is learning enough about it to refute the debunker nonsense.

    RRR: Mac Brazel was a dolt, and his "debris" was balloon scrap, just as the Army said.

    REALITY:

    Rich also claims Mogul wasn't responsible, so balloon scrap from where--balloon projects from the future?

    What we have here is another time-travel "explanation" for Roswell, like AFOSI's crash dummies from the 1950s.

    By Blogger David Rudiak, at Thursday, September 04, 2014  

  • I firmly believe we should take a long 'Roswell vacation' (and by that I do not mean travelling there for a vacation either!)

    At least until such time as those promised, but never-to-be-delivered slides finally appear.

    Or do you find my last sentence a contradiction in terms?

    By Blogger cda, at Thursday, September 04, 2014  

  • Yes, CDA...

    Roswell needs a respite, and let me say that David Rudiak, when he applies his usual scrutiny, rather than broadsides, gives us valuable insight to Roswell and other UFO episodes.

    (But the list of balloon tests by various agencies in the 1940s is greater than David shows and I'll load the total list upcoming.)

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, September 04, 2014  

  • As I have said, when it comes to a testable fact, Rudiak is reliable and has done sone admirable work,

    But in virtually any case where he interprets something, it is comical how disingenuous he can be and always in the service of his Lord, Saucer Jesus.

    You see several of his whoppers above. Any time he says he has proved something, you can pretty well count on the opposite to be true.

    David could be a respected participant in this hobby. Instead he squanders his considerable talents for research by connecting them to his unimaginably silly conspiracy worldview.

    And, please no one tell him that no one really reads (on either side) his kooky multipart messages....a brief skim: "he is a liar....no flight 6...debunker....Air Force...Praise the Saucer Lord" Is enough to get the gist of the thing.

    Lance

    By Blogger Lance, at Thursday, September 04, 2014  

  • Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works here, but in his interview didn't Brazel state that he'd recovered weather balloons in the past? I can't imagine one type of balloon looks all that different from another when it's sitting in the desert...

    By Blogger Capt Steve, at Thursday, September 04, 2014  

  • RR,

    I'm not sure that his life "ending badly" 16 years after the incident is a valid criticism that's relevant to the topic at hand, and this is the first time I've seen Brazel referred to as a "nut".

    The question on whether or not Brazel had recovered balloons in the past IS relevant. From the photos we've seen of Mogul arrays they look just like any other balloon only with a different payload. If Brazel had recovered balloons and was familiar with them AND whatever left the debris was a balloon...then Brazel's behavior becomes odd; what on Earth made him think he'd found something different? In fact, he thought that what he'd found was so different that he showed his neighbors (the Proctors) some of what he'd recovered.

    That doesn't sound like a man who found a balloon.

    By Blogger Capt Steve, at Thursday, September 04, 2014  

  • Capt...

    I deleted my comment as it read incorrectly.

    What I was trying to say was that Brazel acted screwy from just before his "find" and certainly afterward.

    Why?

    Some would say his treatment by the Army caused him anxiety and grief after the find.

    And some would say the find itself was so odd it caused him to act in a bizarre way.

    But his attempt to get a reward for a "saucer discovery" indicates a mind at the edge of a need or problem, economic or otherwise.

    His activity in town, several days after his find, shows that he ruminated about the stuff he came across and decided to capitalize on it, showing, to me, that it wasn't something so foreign that he had to get to the authorities immediately when he found the "debris."

    The wait tells me he was calculating rather than excited by a very strange array of materials he stumbled upon.

    Something isn't right with his story and actions, and his life after the incident shows a man hoping to escape the nonsense: the nonsense of the Army's reaction or the nonsense of his own actions.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, September 04, 2014  

  • RR,

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    I think his (Brazel's) attempt at collecting a reward came from his claimed prior experience with recovering weather balloons, for which there was a reward. The Brazels were not wealthy and could use the money.

    Perhaps the nature of the debris led him to believe that the reward would be higher than that for a balloon?

    To me Roswell's a tough case. It's pretty clear (to me) that it wasn't a balloon that was found, but it's also pretty clear that it wasn't an alien spacecraft. All we really have are first-hand accounts (Brazel Jr, Marcel Sr/Jr, the Proctors) of some strange debris collected at the Foster ranch. Everything else is hearsay at best.

    By Blogger Capt Steve, at Thursday, September 04, 2014  

  • I lived in a time when showing home movies or slides was commonplace to invited guests. After the display was over and the guests returned home, I remember that this ritualistic form of entertainment was considered boring or a waste of time. Gradually this evolved into a cliche that the viewing of these home movies or slides was not enjoyable, except to the people who fed the film into the projector!

    By Blogger James Braswell, at Thursday, September 04, 2014  

  • Understood James...

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, September 04, 2014  

  • David Rudiak provided a "corrective" in a comment, which I haven't added as he continues to use slurs rather than just placing the "facts" as he knows them before us.

    His corrective was:

    "More bogus history. Newspaper stories about rewards for finding a flying disc didn't begin until July 8. Brazel went to Roswell either the morning of July 6 or 7, again too early to have heard any stories about rewards."

    But Google and UFO UpDates has this:

    From Jesse Marcel Jr.'s web-site:

    http://www.marceljr.com/timeline.html

    July 5, 1947

    In the town of Corona Mac Brazel hears about a $3000 reward for the debris of a crashed flying saucer.

    And this from Stan Friedman at UFO UpDates:

    "You seem to forget that Brazel showed strange wrekcage to his neighbors, the Proctors and his other neighbors at the Wade General Store in Corona on Saturday July 5. That is where he heard about flying saucers and a reward for finding wreckage. That is when it was suggested he go to the sherrif's office in Roswell which he did on July 6."

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, September 04, 2014  

  • Rich,

    I'm talking about what can be documented from the newspapers. There was NO mention of reward money for flying discs in the newspapers until July 8. Period. It was on July 8, not July 5, that the $3000 reward was offered. That is just a historical FACT.

    Absolutely nothing from that period indicates that there was a reward being offered July 5, much less $3000, when Brazel said he visited Corona and first heard about the saucers. Again, those are the FACTS.

    If a reward was mentioned on the radio the day before the 8th, it would still have been too late to have influenced Brazel, who had already decided July 5 or 6 to head to Roswell, and went there either early the 6th or 7th. Brazel also had no electricity or radio or phone.

    At best, all you have is a recollection from Loretta Proctor that Brazel heard about a reward from them. But this was 30+ years later. Nothing documents this particular recollection. The $3000 reward was first publicly mentioned July 8, not before Brazel went to Roswell.

    (My terrible "slur" was accusing Rich of again using time-travel theories, along with his nonexistent balloon projects from the future explaining Roswell.)

    By Blogger David Rudiak, at Friday, September 05, 2014  

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