UFO Conjecture(s)

Monday, October 06, 2014

Green Fireball(s) Return

Our academic friend (in Montreal), Bryan Sentes, provided this news story (link) to our media page at Facebook:



  • According to rumor, there is now a secret US reconnaisance aircraft in operation that flies about twice as fast and quite a bit higher than the old SR-71. It burns a special high energy fuel that contains Boron as one of its ingredients. Boron generates a very noticeable green glow when it burns. This craft has been spotted coming and going from Edwards Air Force Base, over the Atlantic Ocean, and from military hot spots, such as the Middle East.

    My conjecture is that the Montreal "Fireball" could have been the sighting of this vehicle. It will be interesting to see if "Green Fireball" sightings increase in frequency.

    By Blogger Larry, at Monday, October 06, 2014  

  • Larry,

    "Several exotic fuels were investigated for the Blackbird. Development began on a coal slurry powerplant, but Johnson determined that the coal particles damaged important engine components.[27] Research was conducted on a liquid hydrogen powerplant, but the tanks for storing cryogenic hydrogen were not of a suitable size or shape.[27] In practice, the Blackbird would burn somewhat conventional JP-7 which was difficult to light. To start the engines, triethylborane (TEB), which ignites on contact with air, was injected to produce temperatures high enough to ignite the JP-7. The TEB produced a characteristic green flame, which could often be seen during engine ignition." (Wiki on Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird)

    If I am reading that correct, the green flame is only produced during engine ignition. And unless they're turning off the engines near their targets in order to reduce their profile, I don't see why they'd be igniting their engines while in the air. And I don't discount that they may turn the engines off. That heat plume is extremely attractive to infra-red missiles. And while the exhaust plume is hidden by the body of the craft on approach, it's certainly exposed once they fly over target.

    By Blogger Parakletos, at Monday, October 06, 2014  

  • Parakletos:

    The blackbird did use TEB only to light off the hard-to-ignite JP-7. The new bird cruises about twice as fast as the SR-71, which means it has to put in about twice as much work per unit of distance travelled as the Blackbird, which means that it has to burn much closer to (or slightly beyond) the lean limit of combustion. It utilizes a Boron-rich "zip-fuel" to stabilize the combustion process while doing this, and continuosly during the high speed flight.

    The infrared signature is unimportant at the altitude these things fly at. At Mach 6 and 130,000 ft, the reaction time within which you would have to launch an interceptor missile is so small that the missiles can't catch it. This was true of the SR-71 even at Mach 3; the adversaries always knew it was coming, and they never could touch it.

    This was all heavily researched in the 1950s, and there was actually a large and classified operational program that flew US strategic bombers on these Zip-fuels. These Boron-rich fuels actually have higher energy density than the conventional hydrocarbon fuels they replace, so there is no performance penalty.

    By Blogger Larry, at Tuesday, October 07, 2014  

  • Hello,

    For me it is something due to the sky tracer on the right, or reflecting on clouds, or on the window.
    Building lights appear green and spherical too.
    At this stage, I think it not a green fireball or meteor, but simply something due to the skytracer.




    By Blogger Gilles Fernandez, at Tuesday, October 07, 2014  

  • One characteristic of the classic green fireballs of the late 1940's, early 1950s was extreme brightness (light up the ground like daylight). This does not. Doesn't look like a conventional meteor or space junk either (discrete round shape, no trail). Maybe a publicity stunt, somebody dropping a lit orb from a plane?

    By Blogger David Rudiak, at Tuesday, October 07, 2014  

  • CDA once again ignorantly stated:

    “But the whole ET idea only holds water if, and only if, you can believe that such a vitally important scientific event would, or could, be kept top secret for seven decades. Anyone who believes this deserves everything the USAF, and the scientific establishment, say about Roswell….”

    Your problem, CDA is that you are the one who is propagating a religious belief instead of seeking actual knowledge. The fact that you BELIEVE keeping this kind of secret to be impossible is testament to exactly how successful the US national security apparatus has been at keeping it. This puts you in the category of “useful idiot” to steal a phrase sometimes attributed to V. I. Lenin. Your mindless dismissal of their ability to keep secrets is part of what they count on to help keep secrets.

    The facts are that the US national security apparatus has a long and successful history of keeping secret the discovery of important scientific knowledge. Some examples:

    The US Navy, during the cold war, covertly covered the bottom of selected ocean basins with highly sensitive acoustic listening posts in a massive effort to detect and track Soviet submarines. In the process, they acquired a massive data base of oceanographic scientific information, including underwater earth quakes and volcanic eruptions, halocline propagation of sound, temperature gradients, vocalizations of marine mammals, etc., etc. None of this was shared with the civilian scientific community, because the security people just don’t give a damn.

    Likewise, the US Air Force, during the cold war, covertly determined the gravity map of the Earth with a precision that is still classified. This was in order to be able to lob ballistic missile warheads from one side of the planet to the other with high precision. In the process, they determined the size and location of mass concentrations that reveal geophysical phenomena such as fault zones, plutonic upwelling, etc. None of this was shared with the civilian scientific community, because the security people just don’t give a damn.

    The Atomic Energy Commission, as a byproduct of nuclear weapon design and testing developed both intensive and extensive knowledge about the behavior of condensed matter nucleonics in spherically symmetric geometries that stellar evolution astrophysicists and cosmologists would love to get their hands on. None of this was shared with the civilian scientific community, because the security people just don’t give a damn.

    Maybe you’re beginning to get the picture; the security people just don’t give a damn.

    In the previous posting, I published a blurb from the Federation of American Scientists’ secrecy project which readers here may have missed. It points out that the executive branch has just issued widespread exemptions to the requirement for mandatory declassification review after a secret has been kept for 50 years. I know from personal experience that there are large numbers of documents classified at the Top Secret-Restricted level in the National Archives that date from before 1947. Anyone who thinks that the US couldn’t or wouldn’t keep something classified for that long, is absolutely clueless about the facts.

    By Blogger Larry, at Tuesday, October 07, 2014  

  • Larry...

    I think this comment was meant for elsewhere, maybe Randle's blog.

    But I put it in because you always provide grist for discussion.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, October 07, 2014  

  • RR:

    Quite right, Larry has put it in the wrong blog, but I'll give a brief answer.


    The examples you give are all of activities under the control of the USA. Hence their secrecy can usually be maintained for as long as desirable. Usually, but not always.

    The 'crashed saucers from elsewhere', if true, could never be maintained with any degree of certainty for one simple reason: the actions of ETs are entirely unpredictable. They are perfectly free to land or crash wherever they like. Therefore the US has no control, could not maintain the secrecy and, most probably, would not even try.

    There is simply no comparison between the very earthly activities you describe and the arrival of ETs from elsewhere.

    For all you know, the ETs don't gave a damn either.

    By Blogger cda, at Tuesday, October 07, 2014  

  • Funny how people like Larry and DR always have to put an insulting adverb in their remarks.

    Examples: CDA 'cluelessly' writes or CDA 'ignorantly' writes, etc.

    At least neither RR or Kevin Randle is clueless or ignorant. Maybe I cannot say the same about DR or Larry.

    But this comment also belongs elsewhere.

    By Blogger cda, at Tuesday, October 07, 2014  

  • More blobs, orbs or glowing globs becoming a nuisance...the most predominant shape of choice these days.

    On NBC affiliate 9 News.out of Breckenridge Colorado..the anchor makes a weak attempt at debunking the field reporter's sighting.

    Then the Kansas photo of very recent vintage whose appearance that hearkens back to the good old days of hubcaps and chicken brooders. The beat goes on and then some.


    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Tuesday, October 07, 2014  

  • More glowing blobs to peruse ...of very recent vintage courtesy of WPDE Newschannel 15 in South Carolina across the border from yours truly.


    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Tuesday, October 07, 2014  

  • Rich:

    Yes I accidentally posted my comment on the wrong blog; mea culpa. (I had both tabs open simultaneously and obviously selected the wrong one in my haste.)


    I used the adverbs "cluelessly" and "ignorantly" deliberately to challenge you to think: what is the evidential basis for your opinion? Is it having direct experience from working inside the US classified world? No, I don't think so; you're not a US citizen are you? Is it extensive research on the history and laws surrounding US classification and clandestine activities? I see no evidence of that in your writing. Is it having friends and family who were immersed in the clandestine world?

    I have all those qualifications and for that reason, I know—not believe—I know much more of what the US classified world is capable of and motivated by than you do. I have what psychologists term the “curse of knowledge”. That makes it very hard for me to stand by and treat your hunches and opinions on this matter as though they might hypothetically be correct. All the points you raise about the US not being able to control the secret because elements of it would be outside of its jurisdiction and “most probably, would not even try” are perfectly plausible, reasonable conjectures from someone who doesn’t have any actual knowledge. While they’re plausible, they’re factually wrong--there are counterexamples to every point you raise.

    In your defense, the reason you are clueless and ignorant on this particular matter is because it is the business of the national security establishments of major nations to keep you that way. Indeed, keeping the insiders informed and the outsiders (i.e., average citizens) ignorant and confused is virtually their entire reason for existence. It goes without saying that the US national security establishment has vast resources for this purpose and a lot of practice at it.

    There may be good reasons to conjecture that nothing unconventional was recovered at Roswell in 1947, but the premise that the US couldn’t or wouldn’t first classify it and then keep it classified for 67 years is not one of them.

    I don’t hold out any hope that you are educable on this topic; in the years that I’ve been following your writings on these blogs you seem to have only about 3 or 4 basic thoughts that you keep repeating with minor variations. Moreover, you pretend to never be less than 100% certain of any of them, so the prospect of me causing you to have a new idea is pretty remote. It is for the benefit of those readers who are still actively engaged in trying to understand the UFO phenomena and their implications that I have to occasionally call BS when it threatens to drown out the intellectual activity.

    Back on the Green Fireball topic:

    A normal characteristic of a natural meteoroid or piece of space junk re-entering the atmosphere is that they do not exhibit constant brightness. They’re very dim when they first enter the atmosphere, ramp up their brightness exponentially as they go deeper, and then either break up with a massive flare or wink out if they have decelerated below the speed at which they would incandesce. This object seemed to have constant brightness along its path until it disappeared from sight. That fact was mentioned by the commentator as a factor leading away from the meteoroid explanation.

    So, if it was a distant object, it was probably not a natural meteoroid or piece of space junk. That’s why I suggested the aircraft with a green exhaust explanation.

    However, on the face of it I don’t see anything to rule out a reflection of some sort, as Gilles suggests. To me, the color of the image appears to be suspiciously close to that of a common laser pointer, giving yet another possible mundane explanation.

    By Blogger Larry, at Tuesday, October 07, 2014  

  • Larry:

    If you wish to continue this debate further, please do so on Kevin's blog, as it is way off topic here and RR has had enough of it, I am sure.

    By Blogger cda, at Wednesday, October 08, 2014  

  • "Your problem...is that you are...propagating a religious belief.... The fact that you BELIEVE keeping [the whole ET idea] secret to be impossible is testament to exactly how successful the US national security apparatus has been at keeping it."

    Larry's problem is that appealing to a vast fantastic nonfalsifiable conspiracy to explain over a century of evidenceless and utterly inconsequential "UFO" reports is worthless rhetoric. And then appealing to his own authority on the subjects of national security--as if one of the most monumental discoveries in human history and the subject of his flying-saucer fantasy, ET visitation, might be included with such secrets--is just silly. Larry doesn't know any more than the rest of us about national security, hypothetical ETI, or the history of "UFO" reports and the myth.

    And to insult more rational others "to get them to think" and turning reality and language upside-down--the obvious facts of the world outside of Larry's flying-saucer fantasy are "religious belief"--is all typical Internet "UFO" crank behavior.

    But thanks for another demonstration of why the fossilized pseudoscience of ufoolery is history, it always was.


    By Blogger zoamchomsky, at Wednesday, October 08, 2014  

  • Green fireballs are simply meteors that are metal or stony containing metallic grains, most likely nickel.

    Green fireballs, being meteors, can exhibit just about any brightness and behavior imaginable.


    By Blogger zoamchomsky, at Wednesday, October 08, 2014  

  • In reading these comments by others it all in sum total seems to boil down to conjecture based on suggestion when it comes to the lack of verification as applied to any theory. Suggestion as a unifying principle that undoes itself. We may be the butt of a joke for which we apply the punchline.

    "Suggestibility varies as the amount of disaggregation, and inversely as the unification of consciousness."
    - Boris Sidis: The Psychology of Suggestion:

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, October 08, 2014  

  • "According to rumor, there is now a secret US reconnaisance aircraft in operation that flies about twice as fast and quite a bit higher than the old SR-71. [Blah, Blah, Blah]"

    And if you'll buy that, I've got a bridge that I'll sell you.

    Exactly the same sort of "Aurora" magical mystery-mongering we heard from the late 1980s into the mid-90s. A myth and nothing more.

    We're back to flying the 1950s U-2 over the Mideast since the 1990s. We're flying the 1970s B1B there now. There's no new "Space Shuttle," only the pint-sized robotic X-37B. All evidence indicates that a tandem "space plane" recon vehicle tested in the early 1990s was unsuccessful, and the era of such fantastic high-speed, high-flying aircraft was over. Having reached the limits of such technology, its cost, and real-time intelligence now supplied by satellites and drones, it's very unlikely that there exists any such aircraft.

    The secret-technology hypothesis has been part of the "UFO" myth and delusion since 1896, and it was the most popularly held explanation for flying-saucer reports until 1950. All the stuff of space-age myth.

    By Blogger zoamchomsky, at Wednesday, October 08, 2014  

  • Zoam:

    To be fair, Larry only said it was a "rumor". There is also a rumor that the US has several crashed ET craft, and bodies, stashed away for nearly 70 years.

    Come to think of it, there have been several "US reconnaisance aircraft that that fly about twice as fast and quite a bit higher than the old SR-71".

    But these are not real aircraft; they are spy satellites and fly a great deal higher than the SR-71.

    No, I do not think for a moment that any have generated green fireball reports.

    And yes, I do agree with your remarks about who is, and who is not, an expert on matters of national security, especially when it pertains to UFOs.

    By Blogger cda, at Wednesday, October 08, 2014  

  • As an agnostic regarding the source of green, red or white fireballs unless identified by astronomical and ground evidence..I would say the U.S has a long and successful history of keeping secrets..secret, intentionally or unintentionally whether it is X craft,or the hugely backlogged declassification process. During WW2 the CIA has admitted that the Ultra classification forbid even note taking etc when high level discussions on military issues were discussed..the A-Bomb being a good example which has given historians a headache. The SR71 was kept secret for a long period of time during test flights. The CIA has admitted that they manipulated the UFO scene if one cares to read their own historical overview in the public record. Bear in mind that not all X craft are successful and that does not preclude them from being sighted during test flights. In other words, the lack of a fully developed model being put to use does not constitute that a prototype did not exist. I think in the leap to attach positivism as a quasi belief to any theory regarding this is just sloppy, or as the blog title suggests...conjecture and I fail to see a reason to get wound up about it. Its all speculative.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Thursday, October 09, 2014  

  • From Zoam Chomsky....and no, he's not an RRRGroup member (he'd rather die first)...I just inadvertently deleted his sent comment:

    X-37B Military Space Plane Lands After Record-Shattering Secret Mission



    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, October 17, 2014  

  • As a resident of the area of this sighting,here are a few things to tick off immediately.

    SR-71 or whatever; no place to land or even come close to the ground without thousands of people reporting it (very densely populated area).

    Meteor; nope. At least nobody spotted anything except that video. As I said, it's a densely populated area.

    Glow from the lighting, searchlight, etc.: she does her weather forecast every night at the same time and the same place. Has been doing it for at least 10 years; this would have been spotted before. And after. It hasn't.

    TVA is a sensationalist network (scaring people with H1N1, muslims, ebola, etc.), but I don't think they would have the imagination to do something like this and especially not follow up on it. If they had set this up, they would have been talking about it for weeks.

    According to the local reseach that has been done, the only sign of anything out of the ordinary is that video, which is strange from a densely populated area.

    Unless TVA had a new cameraman or new camera and that the settings weren't quite right. That's pretty much the conclusion I would go to myself.

    By Blogger A-J Charron, at Monday, October 20, 2014  

  • AMS! > Events in 2014 > #2475

    AMS received 99 reports about this fireball seen over CT, DE, MA, MD, ME, NH, NJ, NY, ON, PA, QC, RI, VA and VT on October 3rd 2014 around 02:31 (UTC).


    By Blogger zoamchomsky, at Monday, October 20, 2014  

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