UFO Conjectures

Sunday, November 02, 2014

Intelligent (valve) design on Mars?

I know some of you dislike links leading to Mars conjectures, but here's another:


Why are newsies (and NASA along with various countries: Russia, India, Japan) so interested in the red planet, and not because it may house valuable minerals available to future travelers?

Someone, somewhere [NASA?] knows something the rest of us do not.



  • And why exactly is the motivation for keeping any finding a secret? To avoid public panic over a civilization that has been dead for thousands, if not millions of years?
    Any discovery of evidence would be broadcast so widely we would be sick of hearing about it.
    Why? The funding spigot would go from a trickle to a flood, programs would be expedited, an international effort would be likely like the ISS.
    Waiting for further confirmation of the validity of the evidence as to not appear to be foolish?
    Doubtful. I can cite example after example of marginal possibilities that have been announced that "require further study" Remember the evidence of extraterrestrial organisms on that meteor? How about the extremely bizarre possibility of plankton on the ISS?. Requires further study. Etc, Etc. Theres no motivation for secrecy unless we are discussing little green men.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, November 02, 2014  

  • Bruce:

    I think that (NASA) scientists may have found something tantalizing but not conclusive by a long shot.

    My son Josh, the neurology student, wrote something at our private UFO site (on another matter) about how science never presents an hypothesis or find until and unless there is definite proof or details that confirm the find or theory.

    Our resident NASA staffer and scientist, Larry, would be better to advise what the thinking may be about all the Mars hubbub and exploratory expeditions by so many countries.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, November 02, 2014  

  • No nation would hide any sensational discovery they made about ET life. This is because each nation (particularly the US) would like to be 'firstest with the mostest' in any such enterprise. Just think of the national/international prestige gained by such a discovery.

    The same applies to UFOs, which is why all this conspiracy stuff (again mainly in the US) is c--p.

    By Blogger cda, at Sunday, November 02, 2014  

  • Josh is correct in some circumstances but in others, I can find where the opposite ifs so when the evidence ( at best) is very circumstantial. Of course, study after study ensues. Physics, anthropology and especially archaeology has been known to go off on theoretical limbs. I agree Larry may weigh in which would be helpful although if I remember correctly his specialty is avionics. Theories in science made public are a dime a dozen.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, November 02, 2014  

  • It is true that Mars enjoys a special place within space programs. That has been true since before we first had space programs. As one of the charter members of the “Mars Underground” which advocates for human exploration and habitation of Mars, I/We have given this a fair amount of thought and have written and spoken on this in various different fora. Without going into all the supporting arguments, I will simply assert that the reason that particular Solar System object receives so much attention is because it appears to be the best candidate for being “another home for life”. (My astrobiologist friend and colleague Dr. Chris McKay is usually credited with popularizing this bumper-sticker phrase describing the special appeal of Mars.)

    Mars appears to have been within the habitable zone earlier in its history. If the rise of single-celled organisms is an inevitable or high probability consequence of simply having the correct planetary environment conditions, then life should have started on Mars before it did on Earth. If that happened, then life on Earth could have been “seeded” from Mars—we could be Martians, genetically. Single-celled or even small multicellular organisms could persist on Mars today in localized “habitable zones”. In fact I am currently on a team with McKay that is proposing a life detection Mars lander mission to look for signs of life within the top meter or so of regolith. The (extremely conservative) planetary science community is dominated by geologists—not biologists—and will require a huge amount of convincing if and when discovery of microbial life on Mars is claimed. Nevertheless, there is one huge difference between the claim for the reality of UFOs and a claim for the reality of life on Mars. The idea of life having originated on Mars is now well within the mainstream of consensus science—if it gets discovered, it won’t upset any scientific theory. In fact, it is expected. The existence of UFOs on Earth does not fit any consensus scientific theory; for that reason they are rejected.

    Even if life never arose on Mars in the past, it is certain that it has enough resources to support an oasis for life from Earth. Elon Musk has described Mars as a “fixer upper” planet, and it is frankly amazing to me that we have at least one billionaire who has taken it as his life’s work to make this happen.

    So either way, Mars is the best candidate we’ve got for being another home for life.

    However, humans going to Mars to discover microorganisms (whether extant or extinct) is one thing; it is nice and ego-gratifying and shows that whoever does it is at the top of the food chain. Discovering that some other life form has come here to discover us has exactly the opposite effect. It reveals us (even our best and brightest viziers) to be ignorant and impotent. We would no longer be at the top of the food chain.

    Once again CDA reveals the depth of his ignorance about the workings of the US national security apparatus.

    By Blogger Larry, at Sunday, November 02, 2014  

  • Thank you Larry!

    Again, you enlighten us all.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, November 02, 2014  

  • Larry,
    I am not sure I understand the specifics of context to your comment to CDA
    Are you referring to technology used or being developed in the program being kept under wraps?
    I got that impression rightly or wrongly which makes a lot of sense.
    I also got the impression CDA was referring to the discovery of lifeforms or ruins of some former civilization which were the gist of my own comments.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, November 02, 2014  

  • Anything which demonstrates that life isn't unique to Earth will have a unifying effect on humanity. We'd rally around our genetic peculiarities much the way we rally around flags. And those who would prefer that we rally around flags would not be well-served by a POV that unifies the entire planet.

    I also agree, though, that science is neutral on this matter. Not every scientist is a dyed-in-the-wool nationalist -- though many certainly are.

    By Blogger Parakletos, at Sunday, November 02, 2014  

  • Bruce:

    I think Larry is, in effect, telling us that when we eventually travel to Mars, and happen to discover evidence of ET life there (past or even present) the US government would not inform the public about it. The same would apply if they discovered UFOs were genuine ETs visiting us.

    In which case there is not much point in space travel. The main purpose of such is to discover extraterrestrial life, if such exists, or to settle there ourselves. In either case we, i.e. the scientific community and the public, would be kept 'in the know'.

    But conspiracists insist we would, most likely, NOT be kept 'in the know'. Larry seems to be a kind of conspiracist.

    Remember the Mars meteorite, the life forms 'discovered' therein and the intense publicity over it all? There was no censorship, was there? In fact the exact opposite happened and we were led to believe primitive life had indeed been found on Mars.

    Never mind, maybe primitive life is acceptable to the security guys. But intelligent ETs are (according to the conspiracy gang) definitely NOT acceptable to science and the public at large. Therefore we would never be told.

    Our only hope is that some other country, maybe China, makes this discovery and tells the world before the US does.

    By Blogger cda, at Monday, November 03, 2014  

  • I would have to disagree that scientists are neutral regarding nationalism considering how they are funded ( by government-military sources )and how their discoveries are used. Philosophically,I agree science is neutral but in reality philosophy and practice are two entirely different creatures. The military industrial combine budgets are vast. The atomic bomb, drones, intercontinental ballistic missiles, the latest two month covert mission of the drone space shuttle...the list is endless.
    I would differ and predict Mars will be the same old story as knowledge outweighs being. A good example is climate change per the latest UN report which is dire.
    Where is the unifying impetus to avoid future and major issues effecting our entire planet? Should not that unify all stake holders? I wish you were correct.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, November 03, 2014  

  • Good example of one problem resolved creating another in terms of the application versus philosophy of science....


    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, November 03, 2014  

  • Bruce,

    I said that science itself is neutral on the matter. And those scientists who do not rely on government funding will be more likely to speak of such possibilities than those who do. And those professors who are tenured at state-funded universities are similarly inclined to be fair.

    But as you point out, that may well not ever be a majority of scientists taken as a whole. And I suspect that is a big part of the problem.

    From the POV of the neutral scientist, we simply need more information. We have knowledge of 1 out of 1 planets which have conditions favorable for the life we identify with. So that's batting at 100% (1 out of 1), albeit with a very small data set of only 1.

    Mars is the knife's edge of this cosmological 'debate'. It COULD tip that balance to 2 out of 2. Or it could turn out to re-enforce our 'apple of God's eye' anthropocentric POV by making it 1 out of 2. But at the same time, it seems to me that nationalists will be more likely to explain things in terms of cross-pollination.

    When we look at the example provided by Earth, we find that life began rather soon after conditions for it were favorable. It's not fair to count that period where the mantle of the planet was too hot to sustain life. And while it is incredibly dangerous to extrapolate from such a small data set (hasty generalization), it seems that microbial life may be extremely common throughout the universe. And that fact alone would be paradigm-shattering were it to be discovered/proved conclusively.

    By Blogger Parakletos, at Monday, November 03, 2014  

  • I commend you for your less cynical opinion versus my own. I happen to think that no science is objective in the fullest sense. Its a human tool based on thought. Thought cannot resolve the problems of thought because thought is always based on incomplete knowledge. Its an issue of ownership. Long ago before the New Age turned it into a topic of thought "becoming" something else, self knowledge meant owning what you are, owning what you do..I see very little of this in science and I am not talking philosophy but realities. Whether we originated on Mars is philosophy and what is going on is the new moon race between nations, corporations etc for territorial expansion. Nothing will change and you do not need psychic powers to say if such and such does not change today, it will be the same tomorrow. The cynic in me says "worse".
    I wish I possessed your admirable idealism.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Monday, November 03, 2014  

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

    Sure seems like someone has been photoshopping...


    By Blogger Bryan Daum, at Monday, November 03, 2014  

  • We are led on a merry dance around Mars, are we not, folks?

    By Blogger Woody, at Tuesday, November 04, 2014  

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