UFO Conjecture(s)

Saturday, January 31, 2015

ETs would be advanced beings wouldn't they?

While reading Marvin Minsky’s The Society of Mind [Simon and Schuster, NY, 1985/1986] to offer the view that machines can evolve to produce “damage,” I ended up inside the book shown here, essays from cognitive scientists about the evolution of the mind.

This caused me to reflect on the UFO events I like: sightings where beings are seen and interacting with the observer or the environment.

If an advanced species have arrived and continue to arrive here at Earth, one would not expect them to engage in the activities that witnesses have outlined or reported.
One has to presume that a species able to navigate interstellar space to reach Earth would have mental abilities of an advanced kind.

This would seem to intercept the idea(s) that UFO travelers would pick up flora and fauna in such a haphazard way or mingle with this planet’s population is such silly manners as reported by witnesses.

An advanced mind would behave in ways that appear rational and not in the often clownish or mischievous ways that witnesses have provided.
Unless the species were inherently defective mentally, which would belie their ability to traverse the galaxy or universe as ET believers propose.

This seems to augment the conjecture that witnesses were projecting their own interpretation of extraterrestrial behavior on an hallucination they had.

Even UFO sightings of lights or things in the sky are irrational, if those lights or things were piloted by advanced beings.

The maneuvers and trajectories (flight patterns) are irrational, even dangerous.

But the creature sightings are what one would not expect from an advanced thinking species, unless created beings, universally, are inherently insane, as seems to be the case here with our own humanity.

RR 

26 Comments:

  • Some of the UFO occupants might be advanced beings in some ways but not all of them in all ways. Consider a modern aircraft carrier crew. Some of them know how to run a nuclear reactor and some of them know how to scramble eggs. A wide range of development within a single cohort.

    By Blogger Larry, at Saturday, January 31, 2015  

  • Like yourself, I enjoy ruminating on a variety of ideas (some more like 'oh dears') and seeing where they lead.

    If we look at the development of Art, there's clear evidence of increasing sophistication. From basic symbols being carved onto stone surfaces, we now have Futurism, Impressionism, Abstract sculpture and 3D animations.

    In my perspective, it reflects increasingly sophisticated ideas in the consciousness of humanity overall.

    It also seems to have been that way with the ideas that have been flung at the UFO topics. It began with 'foreign technology' and an acceptance that 'they' must be 'theirs.' Terrestrial aviation. Next thing, amidst denials, was that 'they' might be from Mars or local planets. By extension, they'd be piloted by flesh n blood beings on nuts n bolts vehicles.

    My point here is that the subject has long been devoted to arguing (for and against) the existence of aliens - breathing, metabolising critters.

    Sophisticated ideas have mostly been unexplored. Kardeshev's Type 1-2 civilisations might not require any lifeforms with a pulse. Travelling-time may not have the significance to intelligences that exist longer than three score and ten. Even the mythical 90° turns wouldn't bother non-biological intelligence. Perhaps a form of immortality is ensured when consciousness can be emulated within something like a silicon chip? Or maybe biological consciousness is 'so last year' and akin to comparing us to our rodents ancestors?

    If that were the case, the behaviours of something much more sophisticated in concepts and knowledge would be difficult to comprehend. For example, what can a child know when it sees a person with a syringe? There are multiple contexts for why a person could be holding one and all could be lost on the child.

    Of course, I'm speculating here. Maybe the creatures were something like interfaces through which an advanced intelligence could measure a sample of humanity? Maybe a way of taking our metaphorical temperature?

    Whatever the case, we can't speculate too hard on systems that haven't been truly conceptualised in our time. Like scratches on a cave wall, we can only express ideas with the tools and ideas available.

    By Blogger Kandinsky, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  


  • If sentience denotes self awareness, how self aware are we? Can the fish in the fish bowl extrapolate via their imaging through imagination anything that is not an extension of their environment?
    If there were naturalists who evolved their studies of exobiology onto other worlds in order to compare them, our behaviorism in relation to our own dying environment and how it was exploited would be a cause for alarm in relation to it being exported through our increasing capability to travel elsewhere. Would we reach a point wherein our circumstances become so dire as to have any off planet exploration cease? Or, will we persist in carrying this exploitation elsewhere? Being versus knowledge.
    This is the 500 pound elephant in the room that everyone has side stepped and is a valid potential cause for the lack of direct contact as well as for psychological probing in relation to pattern recognition. What are the drivers of human consciousness? Technology and it’s use is simply an effect of “something else”. Nearly everything on the subject of potential visitors and their level of comparative self awareness appears ignorant of basic issues and prefers the project our fishbowl anthropomorphism onto speculations that are circular.
    Our tool making has evolved and everything else about the human psyche remains in a strange entropy. I would suggest that this state of affairs would be of interest to any advanced sentience.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • Bruce:

    You complicate the topic.

    If extraterrestrials exist and they have been able to traverse space. one can assume their thinking has evolved; that is, they are advanced, at least in the area of technology.

    If that's so, they wouldn't be seen doing the things reported by UFO witnesses to debarking creatures.

    Terry the Censor made an observation in a comment earlier here (for another post) about why the beings allegedly seen outside a landed UFO or flying saucer are walking about rather than using some mode of transportation as humans used on the moon for example or here on Earth to get around.

    The topic is about the evolution of mind for beings who may have been created and evolved elsewhere.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • You are basing this on the veracity of their behavior as witnessed serving a direct purpose as we define purpose. This may be the equivalent of a banana tablet put into a maze. What is their reaction?
    How will this be interpreted? I suggest that we cannot trust our own assumptions in relation to an advanced sentience.I think your view reflects another variation of anthropomorphism and essentially deny's that nothing is as simple as it seems to be on the surface.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • The observational reports, Bruce, which I accept as fairly accurate (hallucinatory to my way of thinking) and legitimate, pretty much; that is, reported without elaboration, show behavior that by any stretch is bizarre, insane actually.

    An advanced ET presence would, as the Minsky book and The Mind book outline, be rational in the extreme.

    The UFO accounts I provide heavily here show behavior that is hardly advanced or rational.

    No anthropomorphism.

    You skew the topic by throwing that in.

    Advanced beings would not act as reported; it's as simple as that.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • This is a prime example that calls into question normative psychology and my waning interest in the subject as using ourselves as arbiters of rationality projected onto advanced sentience is laughable. You and others remain boxed in projections that are circular,fixed on stereotyping and anything outside of this comfort zone is too complicated,too outside the gold fish bowl as a conjecture. The editorial purview over conjecture is telling. Some views are an anathema. Further comment on a social basis anywhere is simply a waste of time, and so it goes. Good luck with your logic such as it is.
    Indeed.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • No need to get huffy or upset, Bruce.

    It's merely a discussion, about things frivolous actually.

    Logic has nothing to do with the conjecture.

    It's wild speculation only, open to criticism and debate.

    No one is trying to score points.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • The subject is about expanding the parameters of what may be as a conjecture and from what I can tell from experience, it's a topic frozen in aspic. This is not pointed at you as a target but rather the whole social movement which to my way of thinking is a complete waste of time. A heat sink for loony "rationality." Sorry if I gave the appearance of being huffy toward you as the internet allows as much nuance as a brick.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • I was hoping, Bruce, to get reactions, from others too, about advanced thinking, and the mind as presented by Minsky's book and the newer one.

    That said, the simple view presented here, by me, is that the UFO encounters I like are rife with nonsensical behavior which belies what one might expect from an advanced alien culture.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • Again your view is from our own parameters but enough is enough. I understand we have at our disposal is what we have. Nothing more nothing less. What I suspect is that we are being played, hoisted by our own petards.Non human sentience that is advanced would not resemble human sentience. Putting square pegs into round holes will continue to be a merry go round. Domesticating the subject matter for popular consumption is a waste of time and so I follow Pythagoras advice henceforth.You are not the target.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • I'm an acolyte of the great Teilhard and think that if there are sentient beings in the Universe, they are encapsulated by the mind of God (part of His or Its creation) and would have attributes of a similar kind, created in God's image as it were.

    Thus the differences between us and them would be negligible.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • This may be so contradicted by the assertion of advanced within comparative boundaries in relationships. You cannot compare a Model T with a Tesla and end up with a Model T as a conclusive argument for similarities. Your view lacks the incommensurable that is it's fatal flaw.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • ``If extraterrestrials exist and they have been able to traverse space. one can assume their thinking has evolved; that is, they are advanced, at least in the area of technology.`` --RR


    You are excluding entire civilizations of logically conceivable ET. Perhaps they do not evolve (anymore?) because they're eternal? Or perhaps they are able to traverse space analogously to birds traveling in the sky. While we, as humans, need machines to help use fly, birds do not. Why do you assume that such an ability would be impossible for an ET?

    By Blogger Parakletos, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • ``You cannot compare a Model T with a Tesla and end up with a Model T as a conclusive argument for similarities.``

    You just did.

    By Blogger Parakletos, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • P
    What I meant by that is that our state of self awareness would likely be a poor basis to second guess one that was advanced in that regard. Poor wording on my part..but I did get a good chuckle at my own expense via your comment on my comment.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Sunday, February 01, 2015  

  • Bruce,

    Thanks for not taking offense. It was meant in jest.

    I think you're saying that a sufficient difference in degree is also a difference in kind. And in that, I tend to agree. But I also don't think the example of a Model T and a Tesla are 'far apart' enough to encompass such a change in degree.

    By Blogger Parakletos, at Monday, February 02, 2015  

  • Comparing Teslas to Model Ts is akin to comparing a Homo Sapien to Homo Neanderthal ... but what if the "alien intelligence" is akin to trying to compare a single cell organism to a Homo Transhuman [Tee next step in human evolution] and doing that comparison from the world view of the single cell organism?

    We can project what we'd like to believe on to something... but that does not make it true or real or actual fact.

    Are the "aliens" playing head games with us? or is it something else?

    By Blogger gishzida, at Monday, February 02, 2015  

  • A truly advanced species would not play head-games, with another species, gishzida.

    Even human beings with advanced proclivities are kind and sensible with the flora and fauna of Earth.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Monday, February 02, 2015  

  • ``Even human beings with advanced proclivities are kind and sensible with the flora and fauna of Earth.`` --RR

    With all due respect, you cannot know this. The human beings 'with advanced proclivities' (as you put it) have no way of knowing just how full of life the Universe is, or how similar (or dissimilar) the life is which is 'out there'.

    One can certainly imagine it being the case that the life on Earth is as common as the dandelions in your garden. Are you being 'non-advanced' in your proclivities if you weed your garden of such dandelions?

    By Blogger Parakletos, at Tuesday, February 03, 2015  

  • Parakletos...

    You are just being argumentative.

    My statement about advanced human beings has been extrapolated by you to involve (supposed) beings (extraterrestrials) from elsewhere.

    I stand by my observation that advanced beings here on Earth are not insensitive to the flora and fauna.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, February 03, 2015  

  • ``You are just being argumentative.`` --RR

    No. I am trying to get you refine your blanket statements into something which takes more possibilities into account.

    We could be so inconsequential to advanced beings that our existence is of absolutely no consequence to them. Or we could have done something to fall out of favor with them, as you can certainly appreciate with your "God is Dead" repetitions. Your statements are simply incomplete or imbalanced in their truth values/import as stated.

    You used to make many more 'asides' (usually set off with --'s as I remember). Now....not so much.

    By Blogger Parakletos, at Tuesday, February 03, 2015  

  • Thanks for the "help."

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, February 03, 2015  

  • "A truly advanced species would not play head-games, with another species, gishzida."

    We ourselves do that without any outside assistance

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Thursday, February 05, 2015  

  • Thus we are not advanced.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, February 05, 2015  

  • Self hypnosis might be a good description

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Thursday, February 05, 2015  

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