UFO Conjecture(s)

Thursday, May 05, 2016

UFOs and Time

Time can be manipulated, as Einstein postulated and which these books (from my personal library) confirm:

Man and Time by J.B. Priestly [Dell/Laurel, NY, 1964]

Time Warps by John Gribben [Delacorte Press/Eleanor Friede, NY, 1979]

The Nature of Space and Time by Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose [Princeton University Press, NJ, 1996]

A Briefer History of Time by Stephen Hawking with Leonard Mlodinow [Bantam, NY, 2005]

It would seem, to me, that Earth’s scientists might, in the future, be able to manipulate time, allowing trips forward and backward in the stream of existence.

If so, that might account for the superimposition of UFOs in the skies over the Earth for millennia.

Gribben, in his book [above] provides a chapter [3, Page 45 ff] wherein he recounts the paradoxes and possibilities of time travel, and refers to Moorcock’s Behold the Man (one of my favorite Sci-Fi stories) and mentions Ward Moore’s Bring the Jubilee [Page 55] and end the chapter with a note about a “backwards universe running alongside our own.” [Page 65]

Priestley, in his book [above], recounts almost all – it was written in the early 60s so there is more about time since then – the philosophical and physical theories and conjectures, from early ruminations (primitive and historical).

And Hawking with Mlodinow and Penrose accepts space-time as conquerable for travel, positing, in the Penrose partnership, a “contentious” discussion of decoherence within white and black holes but agreeing that QM (quantum mechanics) and the R operation “might be a link to spacetime structure.”  And also noting that because of entropy, “Would the time-reversed situation not violate the second law of thermodynamics?” to which Hawking answers, “The system is moving ergodically among all possible states, so there is no violation.” [Page 136]

So, one can see that the current laws of physics permits time-travel.

Thus, one can speculate that Earth’s advanced, future scientists will solve the time problem, and be able to go back-and-forth in the historical sequence, at least to observe what has transpired before their time(s).

Does that mean future Earthians could or would alter events?

That’s a question to conjure with surely, but it doesn’t seem that time-travelers from our future have done so, or are very callous in their benign neglect of this civilization’s tragedies, many of which you can recall.

(You notice that I do not offer the suggestion that UFOs come from advanced extraterrestrials – because of my view that aliens from afar would not be advancing upon Earth in the numbers that UFO reports indicate. Aliens would not be that interested in this small, non-descript planet, no matter how much some of you think Earth and we humans plus the species here are special. In all the cosmos, and possible multiverses or other dimensions, there surely has to be peoples, species, and artifacts much more interesting than what this rock proffers.)

But if future members of Earth’s humanity retain the curiosity that Earth's men and women have expressed over the years, with investigations and expeditions, one can surmise that they would come back, now and then, to see what preceded them, or even caused some of their problems and enhancements.

The abrupt disappearance of many UFOs obviates the ability to move in and out of space-time.

The apparent scrutiny of various aspects of Earth’s geographies and activities, plus environmental perusal makes sense for those who would be impacted later by them, whereas a surveillance of those elements of this planet would be irrelevant for those from an alien civilization or planet, not affected bb the vicissitudes of this planet’s existence, which is unique….I’ll give that to those who think Earth is special.

So, UFOs may come from time, our future (or other universes or dimensions, but that for a different posting).

I’d appreciate your views.



  • Regarding your past postings highlighting Bostrom's AI/posthumanism theory, I recall reading one of your links to an article that had a related "see also" sub-link with another physicist's contemplation of reality being a simulation. Name forgotten at this time, but he postulated that future humans could have the capacity to travel back in any particular point in history as a means of a "vacation."

    Rather than taking a Caribbean cruise, one would book a time travel trip with an itinerary of the French Revolution, or a given point during the Civil War, or any historical event...obviously the itinerary would be endless depending on one's historical interests.

    Given that this were possible (a far leap in logic?) then we would be able to correlate some of the bizarre sightings/stories from the past to this futuristic possibility.

    The above scenario would give you some "UFO" encounters...not all.

    Again, I stress that this may be a far leap in logic...as we, the common folk, perceive it. I still believe that such a phenomena would still screw with our psyche which would contaminate our ability to discern reality.

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Thursday, May 05, 2016  

  • Tim:

    I wonder why no UFOs were reported during major events or human skirmishes.

    Yes, we have the Constantine vision and some Egyptian acknowledgements of odd things over war scenes, but nothing significant during the 100 years War or the 1812 war or Civil War here, not to mention a slew of other major internecine squabbles.

    And, as I've noted before, no UFOs overseeing the onslaught against the Jews (before and) during WWII.

    What about views of the great scenic wonders?

    Such things don't seem to have been important enough for wholesale UFO visits.

    But individual humans, ancestors of the future visitors?

    And Hasting's military facilities?

    UFOs from the future seem to comport with your "vacation" idea -- future humans as inane as today's contingent; UFOs being the vehicles of the leisure class or youngsters, out for a good time only.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, May 05, 2016  

  • The "vacation" postulation may be more mundane. We all have our favorite time period of interest. Suppose one would take a one week trip back to Victorian London...1890s...White Chapel district during the Ripper murders. You would dress in period attire and stroll the streets as a casual observer.

    How many times have we read in Victorian literature that someone was acting in a "queer" manner?

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Thursday, May 05, 2016  

  • Time's vacationers have been very circumspect in not tampering/interacting with their surroundings and thus screwing with the timeline -- or maybe not. Maybe every time you've experienced deja vu or a "mind fart," that's a sign of the continuum being jostled or the Matrix being reset. Ouch. I'd almost rather have a nuts and bolts saucer to deal with than that . . .

    By Blogger Ron, at Thursday, May 05, 2016  

  • Buried somewhere in Richard Feynman's work of "Quantum Electro-dynamics" is the idea of the "light cone". Were one able to travel along the time-wise axis of the light-cone the traveller would end up at not only a different time but also a different universe. The traveler would also be unable to return to his original universe [This is one of the conceits of John Scalzi's 'Old Man's War' military SF novels] and is also one of the conceits of the "rumored / hoax(?)" time traveler's tale of "John Titor".

    Another one of those famous formulas from the early atomic era [in "One, Two, Three... Infinity"(I think)] shows that were one able to exceed the speed of light it would result in the traveler travelling back in time [as in the "Assignment Earth" episode of Star Trek]. The original Start Fleet Technical Manual shows this is what happens when you travel slower than warp 1]

    It seems that one of the little known facts of a true "faster than light" propulsion system is that it is a potential "time machine" and it is also an "inter-dimensional" [Multi-versal?] transport. Think of all of those vacation opportunities!

    Seriously tho', ask yourself, do *really* want to go back in time to visit your relatives? Or re-live your career? [There is a Twilight Zone episode or two that handles the negative results of that meme]

    Me? I'm not particularly interested in the distant past. Let sleeping mythologies lay slumbering. It's much safer that way. Just imagine what the results might be were all of those religious, political, or philosophic figures of yore proved never to have existed? The Jews and Buddists would survive. The rest of the religions would declare holy war against the disbelievers.

    OTOH, if this is a simulation, how can we know there actually is a "history" at all? Or if it were allowed, if one were to time travel or inter-dimensional travel in the simulation where would you actually be traveling? [See the novel, "Simulacron-3"]. Could you "level up" to the next higher "reality"?

    By Blogger Joel Crook, at Thursday, May 05, 2016  

  • Joel:

    "Seriously tho', ask yourself, do *really* want to go back in time to visit your relatives? Or re-live your career?"

    You jest, right? We'd all like to go back and visit with our dads and moms, or old friends, and fix our career paths, wouldn't we?


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, May 05, 2016  

  • Some theoretical time travel possibilities:

    1. People travelling back to kill Hitler

    2. People travelling back to stop people killing Hitler

    3. People travelling back to stop people stopping people killing Hitler

    4. The above ad infinitum

    5. People travelling back to kill their grandfathers to see what happens

    6. People travelling back to kill themselves to see what happens

    7. People travelling back to have sex with themselves to see what happens

    8. People travelling forward to stop people inventing time travel so that people can't travel back to do all the above and other stuff

    9. People travelling forward to stop the people travelling forward to stop people travelling back

    10. Lots of confusion and buggering about

    11. People travelling back to the Big Bang to confirm inflation

    12. People travelling back to get Fred Hoyle to travel back with them to the Big Bang so they could smugly say 'told you so'.

    By Blogger scherben, at Thursday, May 05, 2016  

  • Ummm... no. My parents were wonderful thinkers... but they were awful parents and created and released "into the wild" mostly broken, awful children.

    Part of the reason we are who we are at this moment is the successes and failures and choices we made "then".

    Who is to say were we to alter our actions, that the results might be better? The odds are we'll do worse than what has already occurred. Given the history I happen to possess, and the lessons I learned from living that history, I would not take such a gamble at the risk of destroying what good there is for a small possibility that everything would be wonderfully different.

    All things being equal, the odds are against such a possibility-- You cannot change the outcome if you have not learned the lesson in the first place.

    Were it that the 6 million had not died.
    Were it that Hannah Sanesh had not been murdered.
    Were it that hate and evil in all its forms were abolished.

    I can say those those things today because of what I learned by being who I was then and consciously choosing to be someone different than I was. So for me, having learned these lessons, traveling to the past is of little utility.

    As for the future? Sure I'd love to travel to the land of light and magic [hey, isn't that what most people think it is?]... but somehow I don't think they'd actually welcome a "savage" from the past that would see the how the remaining 1% lives. After all, "Soylent Green is people".

    By Blogger Joel Crook, at Thursday, May 05, 2016  

  • Joel...

    You fictionalize the possibilities.

    I'd like to see old friends who've passed on, and family members, plus a few pets.

    To be able to capture those feelings of love once more, ah, that would be bliss.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, May 05, 2016  

  • Well, since we’re just speculating. Time travel is going to be very expensive. It will be a massive undertaking under the control of those funding it: some sort of corporate-governmental-military-scientific consortium. Each trip will be for a very specific purpose – no sightseeing. Each such trip will also require massive amounts of energy and will create quite a disturbance on the other end. Each trip will be one-way, i.e., whenever they’ve gone, there’s no mechanism there to send them back. As for why haven’t they come back in time to change things, perhaps they have. How would we know? We just assume they’d change things we think should be changed, not knowing what might have been that they did in fact change. But then why would they necessarily be focused on our time? Who knows what the future holds that’s far more significant. Finally, I would expect they’d find that there’s a certain internal logic to time such that it’s just not possible to change what is. Some sort of paradox-based self-eradicating that enforces this. It may also be that they find that time travel is really only possible moving forward. That even though time is said to go in either direction, only moving forward is it relative.

    By Blogger djs, at Thursday, May 05, 2016  

  • djs...

    I can't insert all of the content of the books noted in my posting but many of your assumptions are answered or probed by them.

    Why would time-ravel be expensive? That's an interesting take on Earth's future, when today we know computer power and internet access is a paltry expense for almost everybody.

    The "old" Priestley book is a gem. I bet you (and others) can find it for a few cents on Amazon by one of Amazon's independent book sellers.

    It will broach many of the issues you declaim.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, May 05, 2016  

  • Rich:

    I am slowly picking my way through "The Physics of Stargates" by Enrico Rodrigo and can heartily recommend this book to you or anyone who is interested in understanding what modern physics says about all the questions you raise, and more. Enrico is a Caltech Physics graduate, who earned his PhD in Physics under John Archibald Wheeler. Wheeler, in turn was the graduate student who was deemed smart enough to be Einstein's student at the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton and went on to pioneer the wormhole concept. This book is a systematic attempt to deal with the questions that are raised by the existence or non-existence of wormholes, including the various different varieties of time machines. The book is densely packed with ideas but is non-mathematical specifically to be accessible to those who never took the higher math courses which constitute the natural language of--for instance--General Relativity. Because it is so densely packed and I haven't finished it yet, It's impossible to summarize it here in a few sentences; I simply recommend it for your consideration if you want to take your conjecture to the next level.

    By Blogger Larry, at Thursday, May 05, 2016  

  • Thank you Larry, very much.

    I'll go to Amazon and order a copy right now.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, May 05, 2016  

  • Rich, good thoughts, as always.

    I too am gravitating to the "UFOs are from the future" idea -- something like "time drones." It doesn't need to involve relativistic physics and "stargates." The key breakthrough in this area is quantum computing: The process that Seth Lloyd has proposed for "teleporting" information or objects back in time within a quantum computer (and that I have been taking as the basic molecular mechanism for precognition within neurons) allows paradox-free time travel (sort of) without the massive expenditure of energy required to build wormholes etc. It's not that an object actually travels through time but that it is "beamed" through time (disassembled in the future, reconstituted in the past--like a transporter beam).

    The interesting thing is, because of a rule called "post-selection," it only works if the teleported object/information doesn't prevent itself from being sent in the future, so there are weird parameters that would govern the behavior of such drones. I'm about to do a series of posts on this on my site, which you'll find interesting.

    Great stuff!


    By Blogger Eric, at Friday, May 06, 2016  

  • Yes, it is fascinating, Eric, and you and your site are on top of current thinking about time-travel and related issues.

    I've just ordered "The Physics of Stargate" book that NASA engineer Larry recommended and will post more after I read it.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 06, 2016  

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    By Blogger hessdalen lights, at Friday, May 06, 2016  

  • Julien...

    You (and others) have to accept that quantum mechanics can indeed be extrapolated to work at the macrocosmic level, as you seem to by this citation:

    "an astonishing experiment performed by Andrew Cleland in 2010 which proved that (under some special conditions) a macroscopic object (visible to the naked eye) can also be put in quantum superposition!"

    I have several postings about the quantum macro environment (and physics) here and at other blogs of mine.

    In the books cited above, the authors note macro elements (Newtonian physics) affected by quantum physics (and/or theory).


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, May 06, 2016  

  • Julien;

    Yes, I see you used "imagine" just as RR imagines a lot of things that are more science-fiction than science, and none of them have anything to do with why people make "UFO" reports. They're unnecessary hypotheses for an abstract that doesn't exist in reality--the last gasps of a dead myth.

    Ludwig Boltzmann's Entropy goes a long way in demystifying time and a great many other things from the Big Bang to star formation and processes, the origin of life and evolution to cycles of human history. Check him out.

    Steven Hawking says that only travel to the future is possible in theory, but he thinks that there is some undiscovered physical prohibition to it ever occurring.

    Kip Thorne has said that if one were able to construct a viable time machine, it would either simply fail to function, do nothing or it might explode. Again, because some fundamental principle of the construction of spacetime would prohibit its functioning.

    But imagine that a time-machine box would work, it would work only on time inside the box! Exactly opposite of the way time-travel is conventionally depicted. Doesn't seem very useful, does it? And again, the box works but it has done nothing; you shut it off open the door to the very same world you never really left. ;-D

    And those hypothetical wormholes that might allow us to travel from one end of the Galaxy to the other by making two very distant points temporarily adjacent? (yeah, right) Kip Thorne says that however barely possible by wild theory-twisting, it's all utterly implausible because it would require the physical manipulation of the entire body of spacetime between the two points! What sort of machine could accomplish that feat? None. Ever. The idea makes travel by spacecraft seem easy and reasonable when we know it's not.

    Jumping to Rich's pet AI--which has been a hot topic in the philosophy of mind for over twenty years--John Searle thinks not only is AI overrated but the danger of the singularity is overstated simply because no machine will ever be conscious in the way that we are, however well it might imitate consciousness.

    By Blogger zoamchomsky, at Saturday, May 07, 2016  

  • Zoam, buddy boy...

    There are alternative views, by respected scientists, that subvert your views of time (and possible time travel) -- Russell Stannard [Emeritus Professor of Physics at the Open University], among others -- and those who think the Singularity (Artificial Intelligent Machines) have already approached consciousness -- Ray Kurzweil, Nick Bostrom, et al. -- noted in my postings.

    Of course your alternative position(s) have support, and acolytes, but there are others who propose views that counter yours, and I note (cite) them in spades.

    You accept the things (ideas) that resonate with your belief system -- or non-belief system, perhaps. And I, and others, adopt views that support our mental, belief tendencies.

    You are just a little more animated in suggesting you have the truth in hand.

    Proselytizing, as you do, for the "anti-views" is okay with me, as you know. I like provocation and trouble, but I'm not swayed to abandon the thoughts of those who think time travel is viable or that AI is worrisome, nor will I consent to shirk the UFO meme because it makes you crazy.

    Keep your "shots" coming.....they vibrate the blog, but do not shake some of us from our pedestal of right (which is might).

    AI (The singularity) is upon us and time-travel is not only possible; it is taking place now, as evidenced by UFO sightings or reports by credible (sane) human beings.

    Believe me, it's all true!


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, May 07, 2016  

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    By Blogger hessdalen lights, at Saturday, May 07, 2016  

  • @ Rich,

    "AI (The singularity) is upon us and time-travel is not only possible; it is taking place now, as evidenced by UFO sightings or reports by credible (sane) human beings"

    Yes, in some form or fashion AI is upon us, or more aptly put has been among us in some form or fashion. As far as reaching a "singularity", I propose that the point in time will be based on the shape of the global economy as it's danger in eliminating a large subset of the labor force is more of the pressing concern. That potential catastrophic aspect is more of a reality than what we may or may not face in the distant future.

    As far as UFOs pointing to the reality of time travel, I've to assume that you may be somewhat over dramatic on this one. True, I loosely postulated that futuristic generations may be able to travel back in time from a leisurely standpoint of a "vacation." I threw this up as a suggestion/example which I've nothing to base this on other than citing what another futurist had postulated. As you know, there are a lot of ifs and a better understanding of the physics needed for such things to become a reality. Zoam makes a pretty good compelling case against time travel...but this is the present and god only knows what our understanding of universal physics will be 100 to 500 years in the future.

    Perhaps some vestige of our blogs will be around in an archive and our future generations will view it and discuss it as we do paleolithic cave art..."What the hell could they have been writing about?"

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Saturday, May 07, 2016  

  • I'm rather convinced Tim that time-travel will be exploited by future generations of humans, and the current thinking by most physicists today agrees.....and that travel will take place before 100 to 500 years have gone by.

    You are reading the current literature on the topic, yes?

    And the obvious route to The Singularity is confirmed daily by news items.

    Geez....you aren't being swayed by the Ludditism of our friend Zoam are you?


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, May 07, 2016  

  • Hahaha!

    I love it! and You, you know, and for all the reasons you just named.

    We're on complementary wavelengths it seems, and we have some good friends here. Even John Harney now. Can you say "Welcome Psychosocial Overlords" Buddy Boy? ;-D

    You know, and so others know too, that in no way do I intend to compel belief by what you most generously allow me to say here. But people can be educated in its pure sense by examples composed of fact and reason, and so critical thinking is taught and replaces the old credulity and ingrained false beliefs. That's the extent of my "proselytizing." Having a no-nonsense style is just a small gift.

    Why just recently you were accused of becoming one of the "Null people!" That was a Hoot!

    Be seeing you.

    By Blogger zoamchomsky, at Saturday, May 07, 2016  

  • My exes would say, for sure, that I'm a "null person" -- but for reasons other than those dealt with here.

    Luv ya, Zoam...


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, May 07, 2016  

  • "Because, genuine UFOs do exist (I am sorry for you zoamchomsky!) and are very likely linked to this invisible part of the reality for which space and time do not exist as they do in our perceived reality." Woo Woo - train coming.

    Also, what has the 'appeal to authority' Einstein quote to do with UFOs? It sounds more like a value judgement that's been hijacked by cranks as somehow certifying whatever madness they have, in lieu of any evidence.

    By Blogger scherben, at Sunday, May 08, 2016  

  • @ hessdalen who wrote:

    "...and are very likely linked to this invisible part of the reality for which space and time do not exist as they do in our perceived reality."

    This is not as insane as some would think.

    First, our oldest religious texts clearly state the reality of other dimensions (Hell, Heaven, Purgatory, etc.) and entities living in them (God, Angels, etc.).

    The entities there demonstrate the ability to what I call "press into" this dimension as needed or perhaps as desired.

    In some cases, science is catching up to religion.

    There's a guy in Canada who claims the sasquatch tribe that lives in his forest phase in and out of a dimension that overlaps ours.

    See SasquatchOntario

    By Blogger Brian Bell, at Sunday, May 08, 2016  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger hessdalen lights, at Monday, May 09, 2016  

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