UFO Conjectures

Thursday, September 15, 2011

Merlin, Arthur, UFOs, and Mac Tonnies


A letter to the Editor of UFO Report magazine [Summer 1975, Messages, Page 6] from a David A. Krouse of Wallingford. Pennsylvania refers to the ancient British work, The Brut, an account of English history from antiquity to the Middle Ages.

Mr. Krouse wrote that the text contains a segment for the period 900 A.D. which tells that a small boat, piloted by two women, dressed in strange garments, rose out of the sea, to take Arthur, the King, to Avalon.

Here’s the actual Brut account:


Mr. Krouse didn’t remember the story exactly as it exists in The Brut.

But his note spurred me to look into the Arthurian legend, again.

That much of the legend is immersed in, near, or within water, Arthur’s story took me to Ivan Sanderson’s thesis that UFOs may derive from bases in and under the oceans of the world, which brings me to Mac Tonnies conjecture, in Cryptoterrestrials, that a concomitant civilization to our obvious civilization has thrived for millennia and may account for UFO sightings over the years.


Mac’s hypothesis leaves much to be desired, but along with Sanderson’s ideas and legends such as that of Arthur the King, and the fish-god Oannes who came from the sea to enhance early Babylonians, one has to consider the possibility that UFOs may come from underwater bases or a civilization evolved within the waters of the Earth.


What’s interesting to me, however, is that abduction tales never have anyone taken down into waters but, rather, up into the sky.

If UFOs do come from the seas – a big IF I grant you – one would think that the beings who are allegedly abducting people would take them downward, into the watery depths instead of upwards, into the heavens.

After all Jesus ascended into the sky; he didn’t sink into the Sea of Galilee when he departed this Earthly realm.

And Mohammed went up, not down.

Nonetheless, the fact that water makes up 70% of the surface of the Earth, as Anthony Bragalia reminded me recently, the idea of an underwater world of aliens is not out of the running to explain the source of UFOs.

Yet, Vallee’s and Aubeck’s Wonders of the Sky, which contains a raft of strange UFO or UFO-like sightings, isn’t entitled Wonders of the Sea.


So, either scrutiny of the Tonnies’ crypto-world or Sanderson’s little-talked-about underwater UFO hypothesis has been remiss or there is no real cause to pursue the underwater explanation for UFOs.

But can we readily dismiss the legends that Gods and Kings came from beneath the seas so easily also?

(One aside: I know that most visitors here, maybe all, have not bought or read the Vallee/Aubeck book, or Nick Redfern’s Contactees book, and many other books referred to here, and elsewhere. That dearth of reading or effort is distressful, for it indicates a slovenly approach to the topic of UFOs and attendant ideas. To continue to ramble on and on here without a connected base of well-read individuals is a futile effort, as Paul Kimball has seen it and we, here, are starting to see also. While Wonders in the Sky is disappointing – it lacks evaluation of the sightings listed – it is an invaluable source for those who truly wish to know what UFOs are or may have been, just as legends such as that of Arthur allow hints to supplement conjecture, about UFOs and related matters.)



  • Well, I'm sure Lovecraft (of whom I have been re-reading much of late) would have plenty to say about ancient aliens slumbering patiently within the cold, briney depths of the seas.

    By Blogger Cullan Hudson, at Thursday, September 15, 2011  

  • Cullan:

    Do you have a cell phone number for him or a Facebook address?


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, September 15, 2011  

  • Face it, in a never-ending downward economic spiral; people are not spending money on UFO-related material. They simply don’t have the disposable income to do so any more. Interests and avocations that cost money but yield no tangible results are falling by the wayside. Better to spend that time, effort, and money on learning to grow vegetables, build a bookcase, repair and maintain your car, etc., which many of my friends are now doing.

    You can’t even count on finding new UFO material in public libraries, which are now hard-pressed for acquisitions funding. After all, it’s still considered a fringe topic not likely to land on a priority list.

    The negative impacts of a hollowed out world economy are deeper and more far reaching than any media are reporting. This is just another of them.

    By Blogger purrlgurrl, at Thursday, September 15, 2011  

  • Carl Feindt refers to a catalogue of abduction claims that describe journeys under water. He's quite emphatic about them in interviews although his website references lead to cases and people that many consider dubious e.g. Wendelle Stevens and Linda Cortile.

    The Colares incidents also included several accounts of UFOs rising from the sea but Hollanda was the only witness I can think of who took a positive interpretation from the events.

    I don't read too much into the Arthurian legends; there's no consensus that he existed and the few academics that speculate tend to focus on ifs and maybes. In that light, it's like angels dancing on pins to interpret the folklore through modern ufological filters.

    As for Mac? His ideas used to leave me cold. Nevertheless, in recent months, I've found myself speculating along certain lines and realised that some strands seem to parallel some of his ideas. The notion of folk from 'elsewhere' being somehow advanced and yet stifled by 'poverty' of numbers makes a peculiar sense.

    In a way, the enigma is like a Rubick's Cube and we keep trying to solve it. Some ideas seem to line up more blocks than others without ever getting all the colours lined up on every face.

    By Blogger Kandinsky, at Thursday, September 15, 2011  

  • PG:

    People are still spending like fools. Take the recent run on Target -- women trying to grab designer clothes to the point that Target's web-site crashed and store shelves were decimated.

    And we're seeing parents buying their kids (here) anything they want, no matter the price.

    UFO people tend to be frugal maybe.


    Tonnies was at the fringe of the fringe, but maybe that's where the truth lies. Ask Duensing.

    As for the Arthur legend, you might check out The Brut. It's free via Google books.

    Or the many non-fictional accounts (before Camelot), such as Geoffrey of Monmouth.

    Legends, myths, as Joseph Campbell told us, following Jung, have more truth than history...tangible truth.

    We, by checking into them, might stumble upon the golden key to unlock mysteries that confound us.

    Just a thought...


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, September 15, 2011  

  • Walter Bosley's story of his father as it relates to Roswell and links to a cryptoterra race is one that should be further explored. An intriguing story if you haven't seen it!

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Thursday, September 15, 2011  

  • Tell us more, Nick....


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, September 15, 2011  

  • I don't see King Arthur, Mac Tonnies and USO's being joined at the hip although the myth is a wonderfully brilliant allegory. I am surprised you didn't cite the Dogon Tribe and their knowledge of Sirius, which they claim came to them from an alien aquatic species. No one has explained how they knew of a binary star system that was invisible to them. You probably know Sagan was fascinated by this myth. However, a lot of myths have astronomical data in them if you read the brilliant "Hamlet's Mill." When I wrote the series on cetacean biology and an alien species, should they exist as a more empirical reality, I am fairly convinced a lot of evidence points to this as well as the possibility our oceans are a intermediary base, if you go that route. The game is still afoot and no theory has yet been proven and I don't think Mac was on the fringe, anymore than I think the Roswellian's are, because there is no middle ground for comparisons.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, September 16, 2011  

  • Oh Mac Tonnies was, indeed, on the fringe of the fringe, Bruce.

    Tonnies can be likened to that alchemist peering under the curtain of mystery, where he sees the other side, the other reality.

    Hamlet's Mill, as discussed here earlier, is fraught with the vicissitudes of myth -- how it is corrupted by retellings.

    And theories, such as your cetaceas view, or Tonnies' need to be tested, but who will exert the effort?

    The Dogon tale is interesting but hardly relevant. Why would an intercessionary species from outside settle on a remote African tribe? Why?

    The Dogons had nothing to offer a galactic species visiting here.

    Sagan's fascination, if he had one, was misplaced.

    But inside the myths of mankind, Western and Eastern, lie some clues that we choose to ameliorate by a Earth/human centrism that muddies the waters of inherent truths.

    We, here, visitors and bloggers both, are too facile, too glib, too stupid to ferret out the truths that lie dormant or obscure; we all being quick to comment but not able to apply intellectual acumen, seeking a moment of glory by false erudition and shallow cogination.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, September 16, 2011  

  • I sense a certain frustration on your part with the entire exercise which is understandable ( if) we give it too much weight that demands an effort that many people view as interesting but unproductive as a purpose with utility. I am afraid it looks like you are stuck with an intellectual exercise that by it's nature can only provoke frustrating whirlygigs that one can throw rocks at, hoping an new idea will bounce off of them. What is your pet theory?

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, September 16, 2011  

  • My pet theory is hardly a theory at all, Bruce.

    My view, generally, is that we are prisoners of a "game" set in motion by a being, God or sentience, whose death or comatose state doesn't allow relief from his or its folly.

    We are stranded on an island of existence that tansfers, at death, to another folly over which we have no control, and never had or never will.

    We are (or were) playthings of the God(s).


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, September 16, 2011  

  • I was referring to unknown aerial phenomenon. I may be dense but what relation does this game theory regarding God have to do with "ufology"? Are you saying it's ( the phenomenon) a purposeless trick? I honestly "don't get it." as far as your thought process. Can you elaborate?

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Friday, September 16, 2011  

  • Everything is a game -- everything!

    UFOs are insignificant.

    They are just pieces in the "game" and not very meaningful pieces either.

    You're familar with Genet, right, Bruce?

    And you've read The Zarkon Principle I assume or hope?

    The Game of God is ubiquitous and infinitely applied; everything is part of the game: evolution, human thought, life, death, everything.

    This isn't cynicism on my part, rather it's intellectual nihilism.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, September 16, 2011  

  • Rich:
    Walter's story appears - in brief format - on pages 201-202 of Contactees.
    Walter wrote it under the alias of E.A. Guest, but is cool with his real name being known/mentioned.
    The piece in my book is a summary of a much larger article from Walter that appeared in Fate a few years ago.

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, September 16, 2011  

  • Thanks, Nick...

    I didn't get the connection.

    (I'm a bit thick nowadays.)


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, September 16, 2011  

  • I liked the hypothesis that Mac included in his The Cryptoterrestrials about Roswell - namely, that if the CT's are somewhat impoverished, maybe their craft that came down at Roswell really WAS a balloon and nothing more advanced.

    Mac wondered in his book if the USAAF really did find a huge array of balloon-type materials. And then assumed it was one of our balloons - secret or otherwise.

    That is until they found "something else" strewn around the site and amid the area, that convinced them it was "someone else's" balloon....

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, September 16, 2011  

  • Nick:

    Mac always conjectured way outside the box.

    That's why he is missed. His kind of thinking was one-of-a-kind.

    We don't have anyone in the UFO arena as unique and brilliant as Mac was.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, September 16, 2011  

  • Rich:
    Yep, you're right on target re Mac!

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Friday, September 16, 2011  

  • Why, Nick, I'm right-on-target about everything...and I mean everything.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, September 16, 2011  

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