UFO Conjectures

Tuesday, April 27, 2021

Something almost odd……

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Two seemingly unrelated bits of information intersected with my brain causing a kind of thought disruption.

A few notes from pals on Facebook concentrated on UFOs entering and exiting waters which is one of the sub-sets of the phenomenon, written about by Ivan Sanderson as far back as 1970 and brought up again by Commander Fravor in the 2004 Tic-Tac sighting.



An account I neglected to nab from Facebook – now lost to the great maw of that social site – told of some servicemen in the 80s watching four UFOs dipping in and out of  a body of water, a scenario more often reported than acknowledged by the UFO crowd.

In my search of material about the primitive existence of God, I came across a linkage between early Israelite God Yahweh and Oannes, a fish-man (god) mentioned in Sumerian records and discussed in Carl Sagan’s and I.S. Shklovskii’s Intelligent Life in the Universe [Dell, 1966]:

“In the first year [of mankind] there made its appearance, from a part of the Persian Gulf which bordered upon Babylonia, an animal endowed with reason, who was called Oannes (according to the account of Apollodorus) the whole body of the animal was like that of a fish; and had under a fish’s head another head, and also feet below, similar to those of a man, subjoined to the fish’s tail. His voice, too, and language was articulate and human …” [Page 457]

The text goes on to describe the interactions of this creature (Oannes) with humans and what the creature provided to enhance human progression.

A few PDFs I gathered from Google Scholar about the beginning of Israelite religion allow that Yahweh had a connection with the Oannes creature (some going further to state that Yahweh and Oannes was one and the same).

In a paper about Dagon and El, El the god from whom Yahweh derives according to some scholars:

 “[Dagon] became an important god … [and] In discussing the Babylonian fish-god [H] Schmökel deals only with Oannes, and has failed to consider Berossos’ Odakon, part man and part fish, who rose from the Erythraean Sea, and whose name may be a garbled form of Dagon … For representations of a fish-god (Oannes, i.e., Ea?) with human arms and legs are found on Mesopotamian cylinders and other monuments. [Pages 278/279 of Dagon and El, Joseph Fontenrose, Oriens Volume 10, No.2, December 31, 1957]

[Footnote: For representations of the Babylonian fish-god, see Katharine Shepard, The Fish-Tailed Monster in Greek and Etruscan Art (New York: p.p, Bryn Mawr thesis, 1940]

This tenuous connection brings to mind the possibility [sic] that a water existence was extant at the time of the formation of civilization (per Sagan and Shklovskii) and a fish-man masquerading (or accepted) as a god or God [Septuagint versions of 1 Samuel 5-4] became integral to human societies on the rise in the Mesopotamian regions at the beginning of the Neolithic era.

For this blog – and I hope you forgive me the side-step to my obsession with the God birth – one might consider that UFOs might come from Earth seas, not an extraterrestrial civilization, and that Mac Tonnies’ cryptoterrestrials may not be as obtuse as most of us think.

(The problem for me is how could an underwater advanced form of humankind “manufacture” vehicles of the nature implicit by what we know about UFOs, the processes difficult beyond imagination.)

((And while the idea that God or god came from the sea is less of a barrier to acceptance, it still raises questions that are far from addressed by academia or scholars.))

N.B. Note the “handbag” pictured with Oannes in the cylinder picture above



  • What would underwater creatures know of flying through the air or space (or Tonnes' cryptoterrestrials who live underground)? Or, say, an alien species from a water-world, know of electricity or electromagnetism as a means to travel about? (The creatures from James Cameron's "The Abyss" need to answer the same questions.) What do they know of space-time, gravity, what is their math, how do they engineer? Of course the questions come out of the conceit of an air-breathing, land-locked, 10-digit biped!

    Interesting, though, that bio-luminescence is not an "invention." What else might a different form of biology create?

    Interesting as a side-note that "Dagon" featured prominently in many of H.P. Lovecraft's works. The ancient spell seems to have carried well over the millennia.

    Just asking questions, without answers readily at "hand," though typing with more than one digit, sequentially.

    By Blogger Ron, at Tuesday, April 27, 2021  

  • Ron, I'm in a mental quandary - no jokes please - caused by chaos theory: the more I find about a topic, the more that needs to be found, and there is a 6 degree of separation for everything.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, April 27, 2021  

  • Yeah, too many questions, and there seems to be a thread that runs throughout and no one can figure out where to pull it.

    The ocean-intelligence-settlement theory is very appealing on many levels, but it has to overcome huge hurdles. What makes more sense to me is parasitic life (intelligent?), grabbing onto a host (meteorite), and coming here. Or it might just as easily have originated on Earth soil and infected the population (problems here, as well -- why hasn't it been identified?), so there could be hybrids that walk among us who have built some incredible things. Maybe the "infection" didn't take with everyone, which would explain all the crazy people.

    I'm still glad you raise the questions, Rich.

    By Blogger Ron, at Tuesday, April 27, 2021  

  • -> (The problem for me is how could an underwater advanced form of humankind “manufacture” vehicles of the nature implicit by what we know about UFOs, the processes difficult beyond imagination.) <-

    Difficult indeed; But could it be, that millions of years ago,..[and I say this because there has been archaeological finds, dating back millions of years, and in some cases much more; "Under Hidden Archaeology"].. A migration from the sea, via ancient lava flow tunnels,to HUGE caverns underground, that we call today,underground bases.From this point on,it dosn't take much to imagine an infrastructure, in time, being established,such as an ancient underground base discovered in "Antarctica"
    where it is thought that, That continent of "Antarctica" was once very tropical,
    before the ice-age, but the base I talk of, is not brought to the worlds attention that much..

    "Linda Molton Howe" has that story,interviewing a pilot, on one of her radio shows as I remember..a long story, if you came across it:).........

    By Blogger Daniel, at Tuesday, April 27, 2021  

  • You make the problem clear, pretty much Ron...

    The phenomenon, UFOs, are surrounded with other agencies of the paranormal, so many that we can't find that thread which could take us to the knot that is at the core of the phenomenon or close enough to offer us a real clue to what we're dealing with.

    I'd like to take Daniel's position, as I once did, wherein we find UFOs to be interstellar craft from an alien world or worlds.....so much more a rational or seemingly simple solution, except for the (mostly) astronomical impracticalities that intrude.

    And mentioning crazy, UFOs behave behind a scrim of craziness; they do things that just don't make sense, physically, psychologically, and palpably. They are like quantum particles. And maybe should be studied accordingly.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, April 27, 2021  

  • Linda M Howe, Daniel, has lost much of her early cachet as a researcher/reporter.

    Whether that is deserved or not is not within my purview. I can't follow her stance on mutilated cattle, only because it is such a side-bar to UFOs for me.

    That aspect of UFO lore can be included in the "craziness" that Ron forces me to see all over the place within the UFO panoply of stuff that makes up UFO lore.

    (And I'm not going to try and debunk the Shaver mysteries; there are elements that almost make some kind of sense, but then.....)


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, April 27, 2021  

  • Howe believes everything and needs to be replaced by more discerning researchers.

    It's crazy because 1) we've swallowed too much of the blather that comes from officialdom, and from those that buy into their trickery, and/or 2) the "Other" doesn't think or act like we do, so of course it makes no sense. Some here think it's being elusive on purpose (or for a purpose), and I can't disagree.

    Yes, we need to study this through a different lens. I hope someone figures out what that is.

    By Blogger Ron, at Tuesday, April 27, 2021  

  • Rich, do you now think it worthwhile to get a copy of "The Cryptoterrestrials"?

    By Blogger Ron, at Tuesday, April 27, 2021  

  • Regarding the origin of the God-concept: check out Robert Sapolsky's book "Behavior". In it he references studies which seem to show that the environment plays a role for how the concept of God develops. For example,people in desert areas seem to have developed a monotheistic view of god, whereas people in rainforest areas seem to have developed a pantheistic or polytheistic view of god(s).

    By Blogger UFO: A Validated Mystery., at Wednesday, April 28, 2021  

  • I have a copy, Ron, that I got from Mac when he was alive.

    But I've never really read it, just gave it a scan. (I'm still hesitant to buy into the thesis, but there it is .....)

    I'm going to deal with the idea, somewhat, in a day or so.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, April 28, 2021  

  • UFO:...

    I'll grab a copy from Amazon. Thanks.

    But in my Substack rendering I've already pounced on a thesis that is a bit more bizarre.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, April 28, 2021  

  • Hey Rich

    Tonnies' "The Cryptotererstrials" is well worth reading, and only around 110 pages of actual text (plus the contents page, acknowledgements etc), so it's a quick read, too. I should stress that Mac (on the subtitle)termed the book "a mediation" on the Cryptoterrestrial issue. In other words, he presents his theory as simply that: a theory, rather than a firm belief, something that is a refreshing approach.


    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Wednesday, April 28, 2021  

  • I meant "a meditation"

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Wednesday, April 28, 2021  

  • Mediation also works, Nick.


    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, April 28, 2021  

  • LOL, yep!

    By Blogger Nick Redfern, at Wednesday, April 28, 2021  

  • I'm just now reading "The Cryptoterrestrials." The ideas presented are pretty wild but tickle my confirmation bias on many aspects of the subject, however that's something I'm on-guard against. Let's see where it goes.

    By Blogger Ron, at Thursday, April 29, 2021  

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