UFO Conjectures

Thursday, July 29, 2021

No thoughts on Avi Loeb’s study group or the Travis Walton controversy?

Copyright 2021, InterAmerica, Inc.
Aside from Dominick’s  aggrievance with Avi Loeb’s apparent dismissal of science and some noted scientists in Ufology (Hynek, McDonald, Friedman, et al.), you fellows are awful mum on Loeb’s newly created scientific panel.

I think Professor Loeb’s reluctance to dig back into old UFO accounts makes sense, even though those sightings and events could be studied like paleontology, archaeology, astronomy etc. subjects.
 
But his animus against them arising from the messy accretions fixed on many of the sightings over the years by well-intentioned  but inept UFO enthusiasts, even among the scientists in Dominick’s list of qualified ufologists, is well-taken.
 
Being sidetracked by all the foolishness and bias of those who’ve cluttered sightings or episodes would be time-consuming and overwhelming, surely.
 
Yet, just studying new observations or reports keeps us amidst the popular faddishtic ET or prototypical thinking of the general masses and media (social and news, both); e.g., UFOs are new advanced kinds of aircraft flown by government militaries.
 
Sorting through the mass of UAP nonsense that know hogs the UFO limelight is as lousy as taking another look-see at the tired and mishandled past flying saucer material.
 
No thoughts about this?
 
Then we have the blunderbuss attack on Walton’s now iconic abduction story.
 
You know how much I eschew UFO abduction reports, seeing them as beholden to psychological or neurological, even, perhaps, biological mishaps.
But Walton’s kidnapping is interesting; if it’s a hoax it’s a damn good one, so far.
 
Walton has capitalized mightily on his story whether it’s true or not. And in the UFO community, when a person does well – like Nick Pope – the attack dogs show up, frothing at the mouth, out of envy, mostly, and chagrin at not being so noted.
 
Maybe Travis Walton was, indeed, taken away by something, or he created a “fairy-tale” that has become almost mythical.
 
What’s your take? Any thoughts on the matter? Or do you just not give a damn?
 
RR

21 Comments:

  • This isn't the first time Loeb has made bone-headed comments, and he's on course for creating more controversy with a subject that already has plenty. I understand wanting to concentrate on more current, less corrupted data, but to ignore old cases completely (some that had been investigated in-depth by the likes of Hynek) loses important context.

    I don't expect this whole process to unfold smoothly, but at least this project is well funded to begin with. That it riles the deniers is maybe worth any accompanying distractions. To get a true sense of this project's worth (and much like the Condon study), let's see what they actually reject from their data, or maybe overlook. Probably most important is what new projects, if any, follow this first step.

    Re: Walton:
    1) One disgruntled and maybe psychologically challenged cohort dissing him at this time raises a warning flag.
    2) Peter Robbins makes a point that when the search parties were out looking for Walton, apparently none of the search dogs could pick up his scent that would lead to his "hideout" in the ranger tower. Since the tower hideout is a big part of the skeptics' anti-Walton push, Robbins' point is significant.

    There's a picture of the tower with ranger station atop that's all lit up, and a case could be made that it resembles the illustrations of the UFO described by the participants. But it also raises questions:
    A) Is the photo of the station (figuring prominently on one skeptics' blog) current (it looks ultra-modern), or is it an accurate representation of what was standing in 1975?
    B) Have armchair pseudo-researchers visited the area and scoped out angles and distances? My sense has been they're all too willing to accept someone's word that validates their skepticism -- something they wouldn't tolerate if it ran counter -- and let the rest of the matter slide.

    As for Walton and other "abduction" cases, I have little interest in such since they're more likely to lead away from the core matter rather than offer a deeper understanding of it.

    By Blogger Ron, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • Thank you Ron...

    Your insight(s) push me to look a bit more scrupulously at both Walton and Loeb's ongoing sagas.

    I like Loeb's gutsy stance, even if it strikes some as outlandish or ufologically irksome.

    As for Walton, his tale -- whether concocted or true -- fascinates. As a hoax, it sparkles. If real, it offers sustenance to those who are afflicted by those of us who think they've been hoodwinked by mental or biological malfeasances.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • No, I'm not excited by Loeb and his newly found interest in UFOs. The point I was making with Hynek, Friedman, McDonald (and, yes, even Vallee) is that good science builds on theory and evidence gathered by scientists in the past...and an acknowledgement of that fact. Nothing I've seen or read from Loeb or any of his Ivy-league friends hints at even a slight awareness of UFO history and especially the National Security State's involvement in that history.

    Look, guys, it is naieve in the extreme to believe that the evidence for UFOs has NOT been studied and sifted by the intelligence community for decades. UFOs stopping cars; causing massive power-grid failures; taking ICBMs off line! And you don't think that there are rooms filled with research and "analysis" of the phenomenon (film analysis, materials analysis, etc.) accumulated over the decades of concern? So it's 60 year old secrecy that Loeb and his fellow academics should be concerned with; since--without an end to it and it's revelations--Loeb's efforts will come to nothing....

    By Blogger Dominick, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • I agree, Dominick, that there certainly are scads of information and analyses piled in various places of government and maybe even private facilities like Think Tanks, Battelle for instance.

    Held in the hands of a few and Avi Loeb's group can never produce anything to compare. But he and his cohorts can produce some revelations and one would hope that they make their findings public.

    He's getting nailed by academics all over the place so I admire his guts for making waves, much as John Mack and McDonald did before him.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • And you know what happened to those guys, Rich!

    By Blogger Dominick, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • I do Dom, I do....

    It goes to my "belief" -- sorry -- that the gods are malicious.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • If all they're going to be looking at is new data, they'll be lucky to find hints of earthly drones (if that), and the whole shebang will end there. Which is why I think it's more important what study comes after this, or if this first one is actually the last.

    BTW, it was clever of Congress, or more likely Congress at the behest of various letter-agencies, to insist on a written report. Had they the guts to hold public hearings of UAPs by various oversight committees (the usual course of action), those agencies would have had their feet held to the fire long-term. But the most powerful government entity is the CYA.

    By Blogger Ron, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • I love the old cases Ron, as you know but they merely add noise to the phenomenon.

    As I often suggested, per Derrida's dicta -- go to the original source to escape flawed accretions and avoid later evaluations -- so Loeb and his pals could go after the original info for each old sighting but that would be a scientific side-track.

    His group is looking for evidence of ET technology off Earth. This really has little to do with UFOs or UAP even.

    It's a grand, smart scheme and I'm looking forward to his efforts.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • You're right, Rich. Kevin Randle says ". . . these scientists are searching for answers that probably wouldn’t be found in UFO research. They were looking up, into the sky and not down, to where the UFOs operate."

    It would be ironic if Loeb was to find evidence of alien technology out there while leaving the UFO question unanswered.

    By Blogger Ron, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • Yep, Ron...

    Having some indication that the cosmos contains intelligent life, even an advanced civilization, doesn't really explain the UFO phenomenon.

    Gee whiz, we're right back to square one.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • And that's why it's important that we demand political action. Rubio, who chairs an important Senate "technology" committee, must be pressured by us, all of us, to hold open Hearings on the Pentagon report to Congress and it's "classified" appendix. Elizondo, who has already stated that he knows more than he can say (because of his security clearance) must be called to testify, released formally from his security oath, and pressed to tell all of us what the hell he knows. The academics will meander around for years (just ask me, I know) and find nothing. Elizondo already knows....

    By Blogger Dominick, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • Rubio doesn't chair the committee anymore, it's whoever the ranking Democrat is, and he hasn't made this as big an issue as his predecessor. There's no public outcry for hearings, so Congress doesn't have any motivation to hold them, and unless a whistleblower comes forward with some hot data, the media has no motivation to make a big deal out of it either. Every government and public agency has circled the wagons to slow the process down because they're afraid of what's behind the Big Secret Door.

    By Blogger Ron, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • Hello Rich and all,

    Let me begin by saying that I know very well the mindset of the mainstream scientific community. 30 years ago, when I was still living in France, I was working at one of the French CNRS (Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique) laboratories.

    I know that it will be very very hard to convince them.

    But if we want to move forward, we don't have the choice. We need to begin by convincing high-level scientists that the UFO phenomenon is scientifically interesting. And we need to debate with them as long as necessary.

    Who cares about Mick West and his alike? Who cares about psychorigid and/or professional skeptics? These clowns are part of the noise.

    I think that this phenomenon with the so-called paranormal phenomena are the most important challenges to the current hyper materialistic paradigm.
    Avi Loeb will team up with people like Massimo Teodorani who is also an astrophysicist. Massimo Teodorani has acquired a huge knowledge on the Hessdalen Phenomenon. Forget about the skeptics' explanations of what is happening in Norway. It's more complicated than rocks producing EM effects and lights. A lot more complicated. Hynek who once visited Hessdalen was one of the first to recognize the ufological aspects of the phenomena.
    The point is that I am convinced that Loeb will learn very quickly from Teodorani (and others). Loeb is a (very) clever guy and after reading his excellent book about the, I am convinced that he will understand very quickly that there is a mystery behind the UFO phenomenon and that it is probably the most important scientific challenge to our current understanding of the reality
    Jeffrey Kripal wrote an excellent book about people and scientists who were skeptics changing their mind about these phenomena. Its title is: 'The Flip: Epiphanies of Mind and the Future of Knowledge':
    https://www.amazon.ca/Flip-Epiphanies-Mind-Future-Knowledge/dp/1942658524

    Very probably, Avi Loeb is about to flip! Just wait and see.

    And this is just the beginning.

    Something huge is coming.

    My two cents…

    Cheers from the Laurentian Mountains!

    Julien

    By Blogger Hessdalenlights, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • Thanks, Ron, for the correction. I think that some of us forget that there have been dozens of scientists, many from the academy, who have been involved with UFO related material...even aside from those I previously mentioned. How about the Robertson Panel? And how about the Congressional Hearings (in 1967-8, I believe) where some fairly important scientific papers were delivered by McDonald and others? And how about the infamous Condon "investigation" that was going to get to the truth behind the UFO mystery?. In that one, there were all sorts of prestigious academics and scientists involved including research staff. Do we wish Loeb good luck? Of course, but this is an old journey and I just wish that they were aware of the pitfalls of the previous attempts. Perhaps they are but I doubt it.

    By Blogger Dominick, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • The Galileo Project has scientists who already think atmospheric effects might explain some UFOs, and that electromagnetic effects of some sort might explain the reports of their high speeds -- so they've already made some assumptions as to how to proceed. Being scientists, they'll look at what they consider the most logical explanations first. The question becomes what they'll do if and when they find these theories ultimately illogical. It will be a tipping point for the legitimacy of this study.

    If the project announces these theories are untenable, it will once again put the government on the spot. I wonder if they'll try and kill it or interfere with it somehow. The skeptics' response will be akin to the wailing of banshees. At least this part of the show will be fun.

    By Blogger Ron, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • I think, Ron, that Avi Loeb is a UFO believer, who leans toward the ET explanation.

    He will surreptitiously promote that view under the guise of a scientific inquiry.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • News to me, Rich. Another interesting wrinkle in the story.

    By Blogger Ron, at Friday, July 30, 2021  

  • Things are going slowly but surely in the right direction for mainstream science.

    Shostak who was known as someone who systematically ridiculed the UFO phenomenon seems about to 'flip' :)

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/harvard-rsquo-s-avi-loeb-thinks-we-should-study-ufos-mdash-and-he-rsquo-s-not-wrong/

    It will take time. But since the phenomenon IS real, it's just a question of... time :)

    Cheers

    Julien

    By Blogger Hessdalenlights, at Saturday, July 31, 2021  

  • "thoughts on the Travis Walton controversy?" you wrote ?
    Ok, here's a thought : the debate over this long running hoax grabs me as much as would a debate asking which of 'Police Academy's sequel is the best.

    By Blogger Claude Falkstrom, at Saturday, July 31, 2021  

  • RR:

    Thanks for the post on Walton. Much appreciated.

    I'm still unsure about a basic point. How did Ryan Gordon get involved in this whole thing? He seems to be the origin of the new watch-tower-hoax hypothesis. Is it just a coincidence that he's come out with this around the same time that Rogers and Walton are having a falling out?

    Martin

    By Blogger Martin Black, at Saturday, July 31, 2021  

  • Claude and Martin...

    First, Claude....very droll.....I have mixed feelings about the Walton story, considering that UFO abductions are a strange, hallucinatory event....but I appreciate the concoction, if it is that, for its longevity and serious theatrical approach.

    Martin, I'm not well-versed about the personae involved in the Walton tale, but I think that the falling-out between the fellows is the grist of the current brouhaha; that is, the patina of envy hovers over the alleged hoax exposé.

    Like the Rendlesham on-going evolution in details, Walton's "kidnapping" is starting to be filled in with extraneous information that waters down the original account.

    I'm fascinated by the psychological elements involved and the planning and carryout of the whole thing.

    If the tale is true -- it's not implausible apparently -- we have a supporting account for the many reports that John Mack took as true.....which they may have been but not really kidnappings but rather a new kind of mental excursion that mimics such tales of the past which involved other denisons of myth that were not ETs but demons, elves, angels, etc. as noted by one of the more erudite guys who visits here (and contributes): William Strathmann

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Saturday, July 31, 2021  

Post a Comment

<< Home